Profession/Crafting skills: Why?

Hello, my name is Mallus, and I'm an inveterate role-player (funny voices and all). But I don't need mechanical representation for every facet of my characters. I'm content with a lot of my character existing in my head and, of course, in my performance of him/her on game day.

So I prefer a small list of broadly-applicable skills that focus on common adventuring task resolution. I can take or leave craft and profession skills. Mostly leave.
 

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So let's see....

Knowledge (local) provides you with "what music to play"
Perform (guitar) provides you with the ability to play that music

and Profession (guitarist) is about getting the gig?

I wouldn't say a profession (guitarist) skill is needed; those two skill pretty much cover most tasks you would need to do the job.

I wouldn't say that about many other skills.

This isn't an all or nothing proposition. Discretion is permissible.
 

Hello, my name is Mallus, and I'm an inveterate role-player (funny voices and all). But I don't need mechanical representation for every facet of my characters. I'm content with a lot of my character existing in my head and, of course, in my performance of him/her on game day.

So I prefer a small list of broadly-applicable skills that focus on common adventuring task resolution. I can take or leave craft and profession skills. Mostly leave.

Hello. I am Fenes. I like options, variety, and flexibility in a roleplaying system.

I can't take or leave crafting and profession and perform skills in 4E, since they were cut out.
 

Hello,

I'm a latecomer to this discussion, and I actually appreciate existence of Craft/Profession skills in game. My NPCs use them, players use them to earn a living, at various moments tasks requiring use of certain skills pop up.

Their broad aspect helps with defining work/background experience for numerous characters.

According to REH, Conan C. was a son of blacksmit, by the way.

Regards,
Ruemere
 

For single tasks, sure. But for checking how the character handles the day to day business, if the merchant house is doing generally good or bad this week, how much money comes in from the different parts of the house, profession fits best. And it can easily be part of a big number of skill challenges, opening options for the character.

What's so frustrating about having more options?

Just shoving in more options does not a good game make. 3e had piles and piles of crap, digging through it to find the gems took too long. I believe having more polish is better, I know some people like the flaws, believe the flaws give it character.

But the only thing Profession is good for is either high level money making - and you could make a lot more gold plundering a dungeon - or specific tasks related to that profession and then it stomps on the other skills toes. That is my main problem with profession: the stomping.

I'm glad you use it and enjoy using it, but I still believe it should have been an optional sub-system/mini game.
 

Just shoving in more options does not a good game make. 3e had piles and piles of crap, digging through it to find the gems took too long. I believe having more polish is better, I know some people like the flaws, believe the flaws give it character.

But the only thing Profession is good for is either high level money making - and you could make a lot more gold plundering a dungeon - or specific tasks related to that profession and then it stomps on the other skills toes. That is my main problem with profession: the stomping.

I'm glad you use it and enjoy using it, but I still believe it should have been an optional sub-system.

Profession skills effectively are an optional subsystem. They can be dropped out of 3E without many troubles by any DM by simply not using them. Just like a class or race. No character is forced to take those skills.

They also do not take up much space, nor foprce themselves onto anyone. They make it really easy to drop them - like all good optional systems do.
 


Lots of interesting replies since I was last able to visit this thread.

First of all, Guomindong, your posts are trending more and more toward the jerkish and you need to cut that out. I GET that you think that craft and profession skills are not something needed in this (or any) RPG. Since a great many RPG's see fit to include them then I would say that there is room for disagreement on the subject. You stating categorically that this is essentially badwrongfun is not conducive to further conversation. So knock it off. You're plenty smart enough to have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

Personally, as evidenced by my earlier replies in this thread, I like the inclusion of such skills and was slightly (not majorly) disappointed that they were not included in 4e. Enough so that I quickly thought up the house rule that I posted earlier in the thread.

But to clarify that position, I fully acknowledge the problems with the manner in which those skills were applied as part of the overall skill system in 3.x. The problem, as many of you point out, is that those skills had to be bought with the same set of points that you bought the skills that see a lot more use in day to day adventuring. So when you are faced with either maxing out your Spot skill or putting points in Basketweaving, while you might find the second more flavorful, you know that you're going to be making Spot rolls like every 10 minutes.

That is precisely why I suggested a house rule that was an adjunct to rather than replacement of the skills you could already select. You are not sacrificing any of the skills that you would already be trained at. These extra skills utilize the same mechanics of the current skill system but don't use up any of the finite resource that you already have to manage during character creation.

I like the sense of realism that I get from this because, in my experience, people tend to have skills and talents that fall outside of their work oriented skills. Some tax accountants are great at basketball and some policemen are great at painting. I don't expect for policemen to skip time at the shooting range honing a skill that might save their life in favor of painting a picture of flowers. But it seems reasonable that they might develop such a skill outside the context of their normal (and vital) job skills. Again, IN ADDITION TO not INSTEAD OF their other skills.

I take the point of those who say that the existing skills can be used to make Skill Challenges that model these things. It's a totally fair position. However I prefer an extra layer of specificity that brings greater enjoyment of the game for me and my group.

If I do not add on that extra layer then the rolls that I'd have somebody make for playing a set of drums is probably the same as I'd have them roll for playing a lute. And that's totally fine. But if somebody says, "I want my character to be really great at the Lute," then my house rule gives me a tool to let them.

Again, the retort to this is, "If they want to be great at the Lute then just let them succeed and not bother rolling." If that's the way you would prefer to handle it then fine. For me and my group the possibility of failure adds a tension to the game that is enjoyable. It makes success all the sweeter and it makes the rare failures (because if you want to be great at the Lute then you probably don't fail often) memorable and the sorts of things where later the PC might return to that inn and redeem himself against his former opponent. I think that's cool.

I don't insist that you also think it's cool.

I DO insist that everybody remain respectful of one another in this thread.
 

Profession skills effectively are an optional subsystem. They can be dropped out of 3E without many troubles by any DM by simply not using them. Just like a class or race. No character is forced to take those skills.

They also do not take up much space, nor foprce themselves onto anyone. They make it really easy to drop them - like all good optional systems do.

True enough, but back to my original point: they're cluttering up my 3e PHB!!! They should have been in the DMG or one of the splat books.

I would actually like to see a revamped craft/profession system in the PHBII for 4e. One that does not have the flaws of the 3e system and is silo'd from the core adventuring skills.
 

Not everyone is making spot rolls every 10 minutes. Not everyone feels that putting points into spot instead of perform is worth it. And not everyone feels that having to sacrifice combat effectiveness to be able to do very well in other situations is a bad thing.

It all depends on playstyle, preferences, and the DM.
 

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