Professional GM: Possible Return

[Janx]

I see you posted a few numbers while I was writing my lengthy post about math.

Lessee, $900 a month
2-3 sessions a week, which I think is the max you're realistically going to get.

Note, max does not mean likely. But let's look at max first.

let's assume 2-3 a week means 2.5 and multiply that by 4 to get to per month scale.

That's 10 sessions for $900 which is $90. Funny, because that's what my math said you need to charge if you spend 15 hours a week working on it.

I realize there's some fuzziness in how long you might actually spend working on sessions, but if you spend significantly MORE than 15 hours per session, you are over-working, compared to doing a minimum wage job (under-paid).

If you can spend LESS than 15 hours per session, that gives you free time to work somewhere else, and that's actually good economic sense.

However, those numbers are only good if you're truly working at capacity (per my time estimates).

Odds are good, you won't be getting that level of work, even if there is some demand. Especially starting out.

That means, you actually need to charge more per session, in order to meet your goals (or at least be closer to reaching your financial goal while not running at maximum capacity). Ironically, once you get the system going, and a client base working, you can actually make more money than your minimum. But the trick is you've got to get the ball going, and make a fair wage while doing so.

I'd recommend to base your estimates on a lower frequency. Obviously, the extreme would be 1 session per month (asking for $900 for that one session would be difficult).

Let's shoot for 1 session per week as an optimistic yet not maximum goal. THat then means you need to charge $225 per session, which would be $56.25 per player in a four PC game.

$50 is pretty pricey for my demographic. In a more affluent market, it may not be a big deal. Ultimately, since your selling a service that many people do themselves, your target market IS wealthy people.

For my self, as a tech sector professional, given that the level of work could be equal to a day job (especially if running at capacity), I would have to use my salary for my calculations, and that would price me out of the market. I would have to, because I have to pay my bills.

Basically, selling the service at a rate that at best would meet Federal Poverty standards is not worth your time. There are better jobs out there. Given that the math performed on those numbers makes prices that most people balk at, that shows that the feasibility of selling this service is low.


I did a google for "Professional Game Master" and found 2 relevant links to people who sell this service. And they weren't at the top (it was instead forum pages discussing professional GMing). The idea of selling GMing services isn't new. The fact that pretty much nobody is doing it is because the viability of doing so is low.

 

[Captain_Commando]

That means, you actually need to charge more per session, in order to meet your goals (or at least be closer to reaching your financial goal while not running at maximum capacity). Ironically, once you get the system going, and a client base working, you can actually make more money than your minimum. But the trick is you've got to get the ball going, and make a fair wage while doing so.

Ultimately, since your selling a service that many people do themselves, your target market IS wealthy people.

Basically, selling the service at a rate that at best would meet Federal Poverty standards is not worth your time. There are better jobs out there. Given that the math performed on those numbers makes prices that most people balk at, that shows that the feasibility of selling this service is low.

I did a google for "Professional Game Master" and found 2 relevant links to people who sell this service. And they weren't at the top (it was instead forum pages discussing professional GMing). The idea of selling GMing services isn't new. The fact that pretty much nobody is doing it is because the viability of doing so is low.

One has to take local price of entertainment into consideration, as well as local wealth levels.

This is currently a NYC-based business, where the price of a movie ticket is as high as $12, an off-broadyway ticket can range from $20-60, and a broadway ticket can range from $100-200. The price per person with my rates is the price of a large cornbeef sandwich at some eateries in the city. The price per group being the price of a single Kobe beef burger (I think). This is a city where you can get a $1,000 omlette.

There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to.

I'm going to be offering a relatively broad range of services, not just DnD adventures so I'm covering more than one niche.

Publishing/selling the adventures and artwork that I generate for the service also has to be taken into consideration for total income.

Selling GMing services alone isn't viable, but I'm not just selling GMing services.

That said, if I get even just one session hired a month at my current rates, that's a success for me since that'll cover my food and transportation while job hunting that month.

 

[catsclaw227]

This is currently a NYC-based business, where the price of a movie ticket is as high as $12, an off-broadyway ticket can range from $20-60, and a broadway ticket can range from $100-200. The price per person with my rates is the price of a large cornbeef sandwich at some eateries in the city. The price per group being the price of a single Kobe beef burger (I think). This is a city where you can get a $1,000 omlette.

There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to.

Off-Broadway and Broadway shows are all performed by seasoned professionals with loads of experience and sometimes have huge expensive sets and a long list of past achievements that draw in the patrons. A person that visits a theatrical event is looking for, and expecting, an entirely different experience than you are offering.

The only way to accurately compare relative prices for things, is if the things being sold are similar things. Its not as simple as lumping your services into Entertainment with an off-broadway show.

Also, have you considered the fact that, while there ARE a lot of companies and wealthy socialites you can market to, they aren't your target market in the first place?

I cannot think of ONE company that would hire you for team building skills with your resume. You would need to have years of experience, have team building certifications, and likely have an extensive existing client list.

And how would wealthy socialites be interested in your services in the first place?

Are you an entertainer, a game facilitator or a team development business professional?

My target is about $900 a month so I don't need to be fully booked at my rates, just 2-3 sessions a week to meet my needs and turn a profit.

Targeting your company's success at below poverty rates is not likely to be a strong financial move.

...someone suggested that I try marketing to military people with this. Ranking officers might be into games that test their teamwork and strategy skills. The war games service I'm going to put up might be a big sell in that case.

If you plan on teaching/training military professional on teamwork and strategy, or even war games, you better be an educated, ex-military or academic with loads of credentials.

 

[crazy_cat]

Ranking officers might be into games that test their teamwork and strategy skills. The war games service I'm going to put up might be a big sell in that case.

'So, you are facing an enemy who has strength of numbers on his side, and superior firepower; and he is dug in deep in a strongly fortified position on advantageous terrain with his men positioned to cover all approaches with interlocking fields of fire.

I recommend using a fly spell coupled with improved invisibility - once you have position on him use a Fireball spell, or Chain Lightning - you'll have suprise. If you win initiative go with another area effect spell ASAP...... etc etc'

Yeah, 'cos that'll work.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

I did a google for "Professional Game Master" and found 2 relevant links to people who sell this service.

Could you post those links, Janx? It'd be interesting to see what they offer, how long they've been doing it, and what level of success they've had.

 

[Remathilis]

I think you might be putting the cart before the horse here.

I don't know you from Adam. I can't tell if your a good DM, a killer DM, a monty-haul DM, a rules lawyer, or some dude who wears chainmail to game and worships Thor.

In short, I'm hiring some dude who plays D&D and wants to be paid for it...

BUT

I'd pay GOOD money to have Monte Cook DM a session for me. Or Keith Baker, or Bruce Cordell, or Mike Mearls or even D&D Alumni of yore (Skip Williams, Zeb Cook). I'd LOVE to play some Greyhawk under Erik Mona or some Dragonlance under Wiess & Hickman. I'd have paid DAMN GOOD money to have played under Gygax or Arneson.

[suckup] Heck, I'd even slip a five-spot to Kevin Kulp! [/suckup]

But these people are professional WRITERS. I can open my D&D books and see their names emblazoned on them. I buy there books because their names are on it! I respect their work in Dragon Magazine and love previously written modules and articles.

In short, I'd pay them to run because I KNOW their quality work as a writer. I've heard stories of them from conventions. They have a reputation.

Sadly, you'd need to do THAT before I'd pay for more than soda and chips.

So rather than figure out the going rate for your time, try submitting some articles to Dungeon/Dragon, or to other 3PP works (Paizo, Ronin, Goodman). See if you can get your name on something, so that your sales pitch is not "I'm a dude who really knows D&D, pay me" but "I'm the dude who wrote X, Y, and Z, want me to run a session for you?"

(Its not that hard, heck even I got published in Dragon Roots magazine!)

 

[aboyd]

I just saw his rates and uh... sorta surprising how badly that breaks down per player. I mean, to play one of his standard games, for a group of around 6 people, each person is basically shelling out the cost of a D&D book. Every game.

I wasn't thinking a person would set rates compared to a Broadway production. They are not at all similar. I was thinking more along comparing it to other places that people pay to play D&D. For example:

DDXP: $20
KublaCon: $40
DunDraCon: $45

That would include all-weekend gaming. If you got only 3 games in, that's $15 per player per game at the high end, and $6-ish at the low end.

For Captain_Commando to charge $25 per player seems weird. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'd rather spend $15 per game at DunDraCon. Am I off base?

 

[Plissken]

Captain Commando: "There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to."

Commando, reading this statement I don't think you know what you are doing and have no idea what you want to do. Do you have a clear end goal? It seems to me like you don't know and are just making things up as you go along and picking and choosing what sounds like it "just might work". An answer like "I want to run exciting, memorable games" isn't much of an answer and only answers the question, "What do I want?" It seems like you want to be running a business here and you're not in a business mindset.

Wealthy socialites? Companies and corporations? Yeah...I don't think so. First off, I doubt companies and corporations no less wealth socialites want to be playing fantasy games with a long haired Asian man in a green t-shirt. Even if you dress in a suit and tie, it doesn't make a difference. This is the wrong crowd. Companies and corporations are going to spend their money and licensed professionals or management companies with credible long history to do team building work or diversity training. I don't even know why you would want to market to wealthy socialites. Those "Kardashians" and rich people living in high-rise apartments...I doubt they will want to pretend to be a dwarf for even a millisecond. Why does WoTC not advertise in mainstream magazines? They said themselves, I'm sure according to their marketing professionals, the customers aren't there.

Second, your pricing is absolutely ridiculous. I just, I don't know what to say. I think you should have enough sense that there aren't many people willing to pay that much money to play. You say your goal is $900/month? I'm sorry that is just not realistic. Do people pay to play at conventions? Yes and no. Yes, they pay to enter into the convention for a weekend pass that allows them to play several games. They are not paying the GM to play. Cons are no justification in you charging for your games. If you're going to charge something, the games should be free while you charge for character slots. I know a guy in my local city who does this and he has people piled up in his games. Or, charge like $20 for like 2-3 days of gaming, like a mini-con. Supply and Demand. There's just not enough people who are demanding a tabletop RPG game and be willing to pay for one. This isn't the 1970s where D&D was a huge hit.

Also, in the earlier posts you mentioned how creative storytelling was an important goal in your games. Wake up call: not all people want that. 2nd ed. was one of my faves because all the campaign settings that came out for it encouraged storytelling. However, I'm running a 4e game and a few of the players don't give a damn about storytelling. I KNOW they JUST LOVE COMBAT.

Commando, I saw your post on the RPG.net forums. You were shot down. You've been shot down by many a people here. You reposted, and were shot down again in the RPG.net forums and here.

Wake up, please! Did you go to college? Finish high-school? What did you major in? Vocation training? Please, face real life and tackle real life. I'm not saying that professional GM'ing is impossible. I'm saying it is damn near improbable.

Commando, you claim to have much creativity in story telling. Why not put all that focus into entering into module writing competitions, writing competitions, submit idea proposals, submit adventure ideas to Paizo for their Pathfinder Society line? Publish a few .PDFs or books? Get them reviewed? Do work that will get you noticed, build a reputation, and when you build a name for yourself and still want to do something like this, pursue it then.

I'll tell you one thing...you sure are not building a good reputation so far.

Have you talked about this with the people who attend the local RPGA meeting meetup in NYC?

 

[Remathilis]

Have you talked about this with the people who attend the local RPGA meeting meetup in NYC?

That reminds me: you'd best be a Herald-Level DM for the RPGA in case your clientele want you to run LFR modules for them...

 

[Janx]

Could you post those links, Janx? It'd be interesting to see what they offer, how long they've been doing it, and what level of success they've had.

Let me google that for you

Now that I run it, there's really only "Becky" the professional GM, who was mentioned earlier


In short, there's not really anybody doing this. Otherwise they'd be plastered at the TOP of a google search, because that's what anybody with brains would do when they start their business. If this were truly a viable business, multpile people would have done it and kept it going in the last 30 years.

And I agree with some other folks, I'd be more likely to pay PirateCat, whom I've never met, assume he isn't published, but I've heard good things about his games, than CaptainCommando. CC doesn't have a reputation as a good GM. The discussion on this forum makes him look like a desperate and starry eyed high school graduate, who's business plan is being disassembled on a daily basis. Honestly, if I found his real name, and he later started getting published, I'd probably have a negative reaction to his product. I'm sorry, but you've failed to impress me. This thread has too much negative publicity in it. Will it matter right now? Maybe not. But it would do CC much good if this thread died, people disassociate him from this thread, and it never shows up in a google search. From there, if CC actually resurfaces with a real successful business then he's got a chance. But right now, not so good.