Critical Role Professor DM interviews Critical Role Cast

[Neonchameleon]

I hear about Legend of Avantris a lot but I think a lot of those views are shorts, not actual liveplay campaign videos. I could be wrong, of course. Looking at their top-viewed videos, they have a handful above a million views. Critical Role has pages of videos with more than a million views.

Legends of Avantris are far from small - they are probably Dimension 20 level. But the claim they are bigger is cherry picked advertising; it includes Youtube Shorts and ignores Twitch and Beacon.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The thing is Daggerheart is in no sense a heartbreaker. A heartbreaker needs to break the designer's heart. And Daggerheart is successful beyond wildest expectations as can be seen by the problems keeping it on shelves (I think the goal was measured in Candela Obscura).

Here in the UK it's out of stock both in the Crit Role store and Amazon and Startplaying has it in third place behind 5e and PF2e. Despite one book, no first party adventures, and only having been out a few months.

Calling Daggerheart a fantasy heartbreaker is like calling PF1e a fantasy heartbreaker. Which ... no. Neither break their designers hearts. And Daggerheart is waaaay further from D&D than most heartbreakers; the players don't even use d20s much

Edit: by your definition Shadowrun is a fantasy heartbreaker; elves, dragons, magic, and corporate offices as a dungeon-equivalent.

Point taken... but then let's say Daggerheart is a 'fantasy heartbreaker' because it's the all fans and players hearts that have been broken because Critical Role isn't using it for their Season 4 campaign.

And yes, Pathfinder 1 is the one exception that proves the rule because it actually was the only game built off the blueprints and foundation of Dungeons & Dragons and actually was successful on a scale that put it in the conversation of being potentially equal to D&D (at least amongst the playerbase.) I will absolutely grant you that point.

As far as Shadowrun? My definition would actually NOT put Shadowrun under that umbrella, because in my opinion a 'FH' is a game that a designer makes in direct response to D&D and some facet of the game they don't like and think would be better done in another way. And as far as I'm aware, Shadowrun was not designed because they had a problem with D&D that Shadowrun was meant to solve... they just wanted to make a cyberpunk game that included fantasy elements. D&D was never even a part of the conversation. (But granted, I am not familiar with the deep details of Shadowrun's original design so for all I know, I might be wrong.)

By my definition, not all fantasy games are FH because some are made on their own and not connected to wanting to "fix" D&D at all. GURPs Fantasy was not. Middle-Earth Roleplaying was not, etc. But again, just my opinion on the matter.

 

[TiQuinn]

I said that every other fantasy RPG based off of D&D was a 'fantasy heartbreaker' and would not be as successful or as well-known as D&D.

Is Daggerheart based off of D&D? From what I’ve seen, it’s based off of Critical Role. The mechanics seem fairly different. It’s a much more narrative game by design than I think D&D is. It’s meant to emulate the kind of storytelling in Critical Role as opposed to playing D&D and I think that’s a key distinction.

Also, another issue with Fantasy Heartbreakers: lack of creator awareness for business and marketing…can’t really accuse them of this.

I think sometimes it’s just a bit too easy to label something a Fantasy Heartbreaker without at least looking back at what that term means.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Is Daggerheart based off of D&D? From what I’ve seen, it’s based off of Critical Role. The mechanics seem fairly different. It’s a much more narrative game by design than I think D&D is. It’s meant to emulate the kind of storytelling in Critical Role as opposed to playing D&D and I think that’s a key distinction.

The rules aren't a D&D adaptation/expansion (like say Tales of the Valiant, Pathfinder or Level Up are)... although the game does have a whole host of things that are mirrored from it (six ability scores that almost match to SDCIWCh perfectly, the same classes like Bard, Druid, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer etc.). But the real point is that the game was created in response to D&D. D&D was missing something in the rules that they wanted based upon how CR plays their games, so they decided to make their own game. And that's exactly why the 'fantasy heartbreaker' moniker got made in the first place. People heartbroken that D&D didn't give them what they truly wanted in their D&D game, so they had no choice but to make that game themselves. And then heartbroken that (more often than not) nobody else gave a damn about their new version of D&Dalike because no one can agree with what's actually wrong or missing in D&D and everyone has their only singular take on what needs to be changed and fixed and this new version doesn't give most other people what they want either.

 

[TiQuinn]

But the real point is that the game was created in response to D&D. D&D was missing something in the rules that they wanted based upon how CR plays their games, so they decided to make their own game. And that's exactly why the 'fantasy heartbreaker' moniker got made in the first place.

The major difference being that fantasy heartbreakers don’t have an audience already. That’s a big part of the heartbreak. They self publish in hopes of “if you build it, people will come”, but CR and Darrington Press already have that.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The major difference being that fantasy heartbreakers don’t have an audience already. That’s a big part of the heartbreak. They self publish in hopes of “if you build it, people will come”, but CR and Darrington Press already have that.

Eh... we can all get into the weeds trying to truly define what 'fantasy heartbreaker' actually is supposed to mean... but as we have seen in The Great Railroad Thread, no one is ever going to agree on a singular definition. So if you don't want to define Daggerheart as an FH... that's fine. After all... all my posts were all just in response to Retreater's original post where he said Daggerheart became an FH when Critical Role chose not to use it for their fourth campaign, so in truth the whole discussion doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[TiQuinn]

Eh... we can all get into the weeds trying to truly define what 'fantasy heartbreaker' actually is supposed to mean... but as we have seen in The Great Railroad Thread, no one is ever going to agree on a singular definition. So if you don't want to define Daggerheart as an FH... that's fine. After all... all my posts were all just in response to Retreater's original post where he said Daggerheart became an FH when Critical Role chose not to use it for their fourth campaign, so in truth the whole discussion doesn't really matter anyway.

I’m just referring back to the original Ron Edwards definition because yeah, I think Fantasy Heartbreaker gets thrown around a bit too loosely. Heck, I’m not even sure it’s a great term anymore given that by its own original standards, there have been games that look very much like Heartbreakers that were successful. In some ways, it’s become a “dismissal in a box” - one doesn’t have to argue merits or differences, one simply applies the label.

 

[Neonchameleon]

As far as Shadowrun? My definition would actually NOT put Shadowrun under that umbrella, because in my opinion a 'FH' is a game that a designer makes in direct response to D&D and some facet of the game they don't like and think would be better done in another way.

The problem here with claiming Daggerheart to be a Fantasy Heartbreaker is "what do you think that thing was?" Tell me what the one problem was?

TheBut the real point is that the game was created in response to D&D. D&D was missing something in the rules that they wanted based upon how CR plays their games, so they decided to make their own game. And that's exactly why the 'fantasy heartbreaker' moniker got made in the first place.

You might want to re-read the original essay. And the very first sentence of part one.

Let's take the most painful aspect of these games first - not one of them demonstrates a shred of critical perspective regarding role-playing techniques. The authors played Old D&D, and their decisions about their games demonstrate a perfect salad of patch rules, unquestioned assumptions, and touted "innovations" that induce migraine, all founded on this single template.​

Is Daggerheart based on a single template? No. To claim so is ridiculous. It is very much inspired by PbtA games. Does Daggerheart have it's own critical perspective regarding roleplaying techniques? Definitely.

You're basically defining the entire OSR, however innovative, as fantasy heartbreakers. And no, no they aren't. And neither is Daggerheart.

 

[DEFCON 1]

In some ways, it’s become a “dismissal in a box” - one doesn’t have to argue merits or differences, one simply applies the label.

That's true, and was exactly @Not a Decepticon 's point to me earlier in the thread, which I can acknowledge. And I can't deny that feeling that some people have towards the term, just like some people see the term 'railroad' as having the same dismissive light rather than just being a descriptive term instead. Can't argue with their feelings, because they are their feelings. Now I personally don't have the same negativity towards the terms 'fantasy heartbreaker' or 'railroad' that others do, which is why I can be rather cavalier about using them. So it is what it is.

 

[TiQuinn]

That's true, and was exactly @Not a Decepticon 's point to me earlier in the thread, which I can acknowledge. And I can't deny that feeling that some people have towards the term, just like some people see the term 'railroad' as having the same dismissive light rather than just being a descriptive term instead. Can't argue with their feelings, because they are their feelings. Now I personally don't have the same negativity towards the terms 'fantasy heartbreaker' or 'railroad' that others do, which is why I can be rather cavalier about using them. So it is what it is.

Yeah, I don’t get the brouhaha over railroad. At least I don’t get it to the point that it spawns hundred page threads.