PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Anubis]

It's simple, really. IT'S BROKEN. Any Epic Level Wizard with Empower Spell and Improved Spell Capacity can SLAUGHTER literally ANYBODY in one or two hits using Empower Spell with Vampiric Touch and/or Horrid Wilting.

IT'S BROKEN.

VERY VERY VERY BROKEN.

A Level 40 Wizard could obliterate a Level 80 Fighter with NO DIFFICULTY if Empower Spell is allowed to stack on top of itself. I think I've proven my point.

I really don't care what the designers say about stacking Empower Spell, they OBVIOUSLY NEVER play-tested that, at least not at higher levels, so it turns out that they made a HUGE mistake saying that it was allowed.

This is even more broken than Harm!

Want more proof? Observe my battle with Orcus . . . Xun Huo, DvR 2 Demigod, Level 40 Wizard vs. Orcus . . .

First, her stats:

Xun Huo
Goddess of the Arcane, Lady Sorceress, Mana Warlord
Demigod
Symbol: Crossed staves on top of an eye with a katana going through the middle
Home Plane: Prime Plane
Alignment: Neutral
Portfolio: Magic, Knowledge
Worshippers: Wizards, sorcerers, philosophers, sages, politicians, tacticians, artisans
Cleric Alignments: CN, LN, N, NG, NE
Domains: Magic, Knowledge, War
Favored Weapon: Katana

Xun Huo, Goddess of Magic: Female Demigod Wiz40; DvR 2; CR 34; Medium-Size Outsider; HD 40d4+680; hp 840; Init +17; Spd 60 ft.; AC 51 (touch 49, flat-footed 38); Atk +58/+53 melee (1d10+15/19-20/x2 crit, katana) or +70 ranged (1d8+15/19-20/x2 crit, light crossbow); SA Domain powers, salient divine abilities, spell-like abilities; SQ Summon familiar (toad), immunities, DR 37/+4, fire resistance 22, godly realm, teleport without error at will, familiar (felines), divine aura 20 ft. (DC 26); SR 50; AL N; SV Fort +60, Ref +56, Will +60; Str 30, Dex 30 (36), Con 32 (44), Int 37 (49), Wis 32, Cha 26 (38). 5'5", 121 lb., Com 85.

Skills and Feats: Concentration +102, Craft (weaponsmithing +66, Gather Information +27, Knowledge (politics) +64, Knowledge (war) +64, Knowledge (arcana) +104, Spellcraft +104, Knowledge (planes) +57, Iaijutsu Focus +72, Tumble +71, Jump +26, Balance +29, Diplomacy +28; Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Weapon Focus (katana), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Forge Ring, Energy Substitution (acid), Energy Admixture (acid), Improved Spell Capacity, Spell Mastery, Epic Spellcasting, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Improved Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, Forge Epic Ring, Magical Artisan (forge epic ring), Efficient Item Creation (forge epic ring), Enhance Spell, Multispell, Intensify Spell.

Salient Divine Abilities: Arcane Mastery, Divine Spellcasting, Divine Blast.

Possessions: Souldrinker Blade {Souldrinker Katana}, Light Crossbow +10 of Acidic Splash, 50 Crossbow Bolts +5, Robe of Protection {Robe of Armor +10, Resistance +5}, Xun Huo's Outfit, Heward's Handy Haverack, Portable Hole, Rod of the Epic Spellcaster, Staff of Rapid Barrage (50), Brooch of Dumb Luck +20 {+20 luck bonus to saves}, Martial Vest +20 {+20 luck bonus to attack}, Headband of Epic Intellect +12, Boots of Swiftness, Bracers of Epic Health +12, Cloak of Epic Charisma +12, Ring of Elemental Immunity (sonic), Spikard {described below}. 328,970 gp, 5 sp. Load: 40 lbs.

Epic Spells: Peripety, Epic Mage Armor, Destroy {descibed below}, Mass Frog, Verdigris, Superb Dispelling, Explodet {descibed below}, Epic Counterspell, Epic Spell Reflection, Hellball, Kinetic Control.

Spell Prepared (4/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/5/5/5/5/3/3/3/3): [Base DC 27]; 0--Daze (4); 1--Magic Missile (9); 2--Magic Missile [Empower] (9); 3--Fireball (3), Slow (3), Vampiric Touch (3); 4--Fireball [Maximize] (4), Vampiric Touch [Maximize] (4); 5--Cone of Cold (4), Fireball [Enhance, Maximize] (4); 6--Disintegrate (8); 7--Finger of Death (2), Fireball [Enhance, Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize, Empower] (3), Cone of Cold [Enhance, Maximize] (3); 8--Cone of Cold [Enhance, Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize] (2), Fireball [Enhance, Energy Admixure (acid), Maximize, Empower x2] (3), Horrid Wilting (2); 9--Horrid Wilting [Maximize] (3), Meteor Swarm (4); 10--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize] (2), Meteor Swarm [Maximize] (3), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x5] (2); 11--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower] (2), Magic Missile [Maximize, Empower x9] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x6] (3); 12--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x2] (2), Magic Missile [Maximize, Empower x10] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x7] (2); 13--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x3] (2), Meteor Swarm [Intensify] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x8] (2); 14--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x4] (3), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] (2); 15--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x5] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x10] (3); 16--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x6] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] (1); 17--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x7] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x12] (2); 18--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x8] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x13] (1); 19--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] (2); Epic--Destroy (4), Epic Mage Armor (1), Explodet (2), Kinetic Control (3).

Spikard: SR 50, +5 resistance bonus to save, +5 deflection bonus to AC, "Haste" continuous, "Fly" continuous, Spellcraft +40, Knowledge (arcana) +40, Concentration +40, Iaijutsu Focus +40, Tumble +40. GP Value: 1,360,000.

Destroy:
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 12,000 ft.
Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 441,000 gp; 9 days; 17,640 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factor: 1-action casting time (+20 DC).

The target of this spell explodes, taking 20d6 points of damage. If the target is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Explodet:
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 69
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 12,000 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 621,000 gp; 13 days; 24,840 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), change target to area of 20-ft. spread (+10 DC), increase damage die to d8 (+10 DC).

This spell causes a massive explosion, dealing 20d8 points of damage to everything within the area. Those reduced to -10 hit points or less (or constructs, objects, or undead reduced to 0 hit points) are utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

Now, the battle:

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

If that doesn't do it for you, just check now the fact that any spell with enough Empower Spell stacked on top of it will beat ANY Epic Spell PERIOD. My Horrid Wilting does over 1300 poinds of damage, whereas Destroy can only do 120 MAXIMUM.

If anybody can offer ANY counter-proof that shows Empower Spell to not be broken, let them speak now.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It seems that the problem can be summed up in one word.

Epic.

 

[Anubis]

Of course. I know that.

Given the choice of eliminating Epic Levels or stacking Empower Spell, however, I think the answer is all too obvious . . . DON'T ALLOW STACKING EMPOWER SPELL.

Seriously, people, you will have problems if you allow stacking Empower Spell. I've actually play-tested this so I know what I'm talking about here.

 

[IceBear]

Anubis, I know that you personally have a beef with Empower stacking with itself, and yes, it is powerful and makes some other feats obsolete, but I still believe that by the *rules* it's allowed. You make a very good case for a *house rule* to ban it from a game, but in my opinion that's what it is - a house rule.

IceBear

 

[Kalanyr]

Actually I'd say the problem is that Improved Metamagic isn't balanced relatively with all metamagic feats, eg Twin Spell with Improved Metamagic x1 costs 6 levels for 2 spells, Empower Spell with Improved Metamagic costs 4 levels for the equivalent, Improved Metamagic should probably be a function of the base cost not a flat -1.

Oh, Intensify and Enhance spell suck compared to Empower, why would you take them ? Maximise at least has some use pre-Improved Metamagic.

 

[hong]

Of course. I know that.

Given the choice of eliminating Epic Levels or stacking Empower Spell, however, I think the answer is all too obvious . . .

The epic level rules are b0rken?

Well, duh.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, I also think it's mainly a problem with Improved Metamagic.

Also in your example, Orcus seemed completely outmatched anyways, he didn't even hit once, did stupid actions, so he deserved to die this way or any other.

And why is Destroy an epic spell? Looks more like a 7th level spell to me (well except for the range maybe).
Isn't it possible to metamagic those epic spells as well?

Oh, and you didn't even try the Enhanced, Maximized, 14x Empowered Flame Arrow, that already has a base damage of 40d6 (not bad for a 3rd level spell ).

I don't know what Enhance does (don't have the ELH yet), but even without that, just Maximized and 14x Empowered it would deal 1220 damage on average on a failed save. Add whatever Enhance does to it, and the damage might become pretty obscene!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Knight Otu]

Let's see:

You fought against the Creature Catalog Orcus. He obviously uses none of the options presented in D&DG and ELH. That could be regarded as a problem.

Iaijutsu Focus. I think it's rather powerful, and I would be cautious using it.

Orcus forgets that his opponent is a deity?

19th level spell slots. Anything that uses such a spell slot is likely to be powerful.

Plus, you're a god with the Divine Spellcasting SDA and a truly high Int. A mortal spellcaster would have to burn 10 feats for the spell slots alone.

Finally, you are effectively a 48th level character against a 32 CR NPC.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It's simple, really. IT'S BROKEN. Any Epic Level Wizard with Empower Spell and Improved Spell Capacity can SLAUGHTER literally ANYBODY in one or two hits using Empower Spell with Vampiric Touch and/or Horrid Wilting.

IT'S BROKEN.

VERY VERY VERY BROKEN.

Oh sure, talk in capitals and we'll believe you.

I've heard the same thing about nearly everything - it's broken because in just the right circumstances it's powerful. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that the theory in the vogue was that Improved Metamagic was much weaker than Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell!

The problem with Empower Spell is that the DC is too easy. A x9 Empowered horrid wilting has a DC in the mid-20s - easy to save against (not to mention Mettle-able).

What about just taking the Int feat for more spells and better DCs? Surely someone finds that broken...

 

[Petrosian]

I too have playtested with multiple empowers. it works fine in my games so far.

We are not at epic levels and so we dont have to use gods in our examples.

multi-empower is not a problem.

given your example hinges on epic level stuff AND empower... my guess would be that its the epic side that is broken (if for no other reaosn than IF epic did not take into account simple things like multi-empower then it is broken.)

your mileage may vary and if so, if it pleases you, you should use whatever house rules you need to fix the problem in your games.

for me, i just keep chalking the "epic this is broken" threads like this one up as "glad we dont play epic" material.