PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Catalyst]

Here's a thread that started out about Enhance Spell's usefulness (or lack thereof), and I asked about Empower. Towards the end of page one and most of page 2 (don't worry, that's the entire length) there is a lot of number crunching that shows multiple Empowers is only one way to massive damage, and not even necessarily the best way at Epic Levels.

Pre Epic Levels, who cares? If Empower is truly abusable, it's only post-Epic (as the original poster has mentioned).

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

What CR is Orcus, anyway? Where are the stats for him? If he's not CR 60 or so, of *course* a 40th level Divine Rank 2 creature is going to wipe the floor with him. That's like saying Weapon Specialization plus Great Cleave is broken because it lets you go through kobolds like a lawnmower - of course you can, they're not meant to be a significant challenge at that level.

How do you get CR 34 out of a 40th level wizard (CR 40) plus divine ranks? I don't own Deities and Demigods but I find it hard to believe that divine ranks would actually reduce your CR...

Read UK's article in Asgard 6. CRs are broken after Level 20 and are thus calculated differently.

I also note that your magic item prices are way, way off - I checked only the spikard, but a +40 to one skill costs 320,000gp (enhancement bonuses of greater than +30 are epic, and x10 cost). Remember to *double* the cost of everything after the first magical property (DMG 246, Adding New Abilities) - so the +40 to the skills costs almost 3 million gp alone, and that's without adding in the permanent spell effects or the Spell Resistance.

Not that the extra +10 matters in most of the skills in this fight, but thanks for pointing that out. I didn't see that before, and that was gonna be the next thing I claimed was broken, using my character as an example. Thanks for that, I'll reduce the stuff to +30.

 

[Anubis]

I rate this troll an 'A-'. The minus for all those caps.

The giveaway is you have Orcus forget he is fighting a god is rather too fabulously stupid to believe. But that is really just a feint to distract us from the fact that Orcus conveniently stand around two rounds gettting beat up without bothering to do anything useful. Not bad that.

Actually, that was a mistake in typing on my part. He didn't forget, he never knew in the first place!

As for doing nothing useful . . . He hasted himself, summoned a balor to help him, tried his Wand of Annihilation, and tried Energy Drain. Not useful? What else could he do?

 

[Caliban]

Actually, that was a mistake in typing on my part. He didn't forget, he never knew in the first place!

As for doing nothing useful . . . He hasted himself, summoned a balor to help him, tried his Wand of Annihilation, and tried Energy Drain. Not useful? What else could he do?

Admit it, this is just an excuse to brag about your character.

 

[Metalsmith]

Re: Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

Well, how about the fact that the Level 80 Fighter would only have about 1000 HP, and could be taken out in one to three hits by the Level 40 Wizard, whereas the Level 80 Fighter would have to hit probably 20+ times to kill the Level 40 Wizard.

I don't know why I'm playing this silly game, OH Yeah I'm Bored!

Hmm Level 80 Fighter. That's just enough to have about 42 Epic Feats (are there that many feats in the game?)

I think Devestating Critical and Power Critical ought to do your spellcaster in one shot. It's a Fort Save DC 10 + 40 + Str Modifier (30 or so?) = DC 70-80. He'll spend his money on a magic item that makes him immune to all Non-Epic Spells. Of course with Epic Leadership He's prolly got a 40th level Wizard just like you on the payroll too.

WAIT! I wanna be a DemiGoD too Dude! How many levels do I have to give up for it?

Sillyness.

Metalsmith

 

[KarinsDad]

This is kind of funny considering that just this last weekend, our group decided to house rule Empower to make it even more powerful:

1) Single die Empower rounds up instead of down. Hence, D4: 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 5, 4 to 6. This results in 60% instead of 40% increase, but since it is one die, it really doesn't break anything.

2) Multiple die Empower adds 50% of all the dice total round down. So, instead of D6: 1 to 1, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 6, 5 to 7, and 6 to 9 for an average increase of 43% with D6, it basically becomes 50%-.

The main reasons for this are:

1) Spells like Empowered Endurance which should gain at least one extra point, even it you roll a one.

2) It took a long time to convert each die and add them up for things like Empowered Lightning Bolts and it resulted in somewhat less than a 50% increase anyway (unless you rolled all even numbers).

 

[Forrester]

Re: Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

Well, how about the fact that the Level 80 Fighter would only have about 1000 HP, and could be taken out in one to three hits by the Level 40 Wizard, whereas the Level 80 Fighter would have to hit probably 20+ times to kill the Level 40 Wizard.

Show me an 80th level fighter with only 1000hp, and I'll show you the worst constructed munchkin fighter in the history of the world.

An 80th level fighter is going to have a Con of at least 30; probably more like 40 or 50 w/magic items. Hell, he's gotten +20 to stats just from leveling normally.

He's got at least 20hp/level -- 1600hp minimum. Probably closer to 2000+. And his Fort save mocks you.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

Read UK's article in Asgard 6. CRs are broken after Level 20 and are thus calculated differently.

Last time I checked, UK and Asgard weren't official D&D by any stretch of the imagination. If you're going to argue about the rules as they are, it behooves you to use the rules as they are, and not some set of house rules that you happened to like.

Wasn't UK's system developed before the ELH? I would think that adding in that book would change things. And did whoever statted Orcus use his method of figuring CR or not? If you're not looking from a level playing field, you're going to get skewed results.

Anyway, assuming that you're using the Creature Catalog version, I'd like to note that you're a 40th level character with divine rank 2 (what's the ECL on that?) going up against a CR32 monster - and a CR32 monster that didn't have the benefit of using the ELH like you did. You should wipe the floor with him, with minimal expenditure of resources - you're not even going to get any XP from him because his CR is 8 less than your character level (without even taking the divine rank into account).

Next time try picking on someone your own size - it's more likely to be a reasonable fight. I'll note for a start that a wizard with Epic Spellcasting could seriously ruin your day by bouncing those megaspells right back at you...

J

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Actually, that was a mistake in typing on my part. He didn't forget, he never knew in the first place!

As for doing nothing useful . . . He hasted himself, summoned a balor to help him, tried his Wand of Annihilation, and tried Energy Drain. Not useful? What else could he do?

Having noticed that the first two of his efforts having no effect, he should Teleport to safety and assess the situation to find out what in heaven's name is hunting him.

Powerful demons and devils acting on their own initiative (i.e. ones that are not magically compelled to fight unwisely) are maddenly difficult opponents because they can so easily escape. Their CR substantially overrate their abilities if they only fight like dumb beasts.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there!

Last time I checked, UK and Asgard weren't official D&D by any stretch of the imagination.

Thats true.

However the difference is that unlike WotCs CR rules mine actually work at any level.

But I concur, they are unofficial.

If you're going to argue about the rules as they are, it behooves you to use the rules as they are, and not some set of house rules that you happened to like.

I agree with this point.

Wasn't UK's system developed before the ELH?

Irrelevant. The only fundamental is that class levels are relatively balanced (as best as possible).

I would think that adding in that book would change things.

Nope.

And did whoever statted Orcus use his method of figuring CR or not?

Actually Scott Greene and I both developed the conversion system for Demon Princes/ArchDevils et al. over a year ago. Though I am sure he has worked on from our early discussions since then.

If you're not looking from a level playing field, you're going to get skewed results.

Its not though. Although Anubis had been using an old version of my CR rules.

Anyway, assuming that you're using the Creature Catalog version, I'd like to note that you're a 40th level character with divine rank 2 (what's the ECL on that?) going up against a CR32 monster - and a CR32 monster that didn't have the benefit of using the ELH like you did. You should wipe the floor with him, with minimal expenditure of resources - you're not even going to get any XP from him because his CR is 8 less than your character level (without even taking the divine rank into account).

Actually Anubis character is CR38, Orcus is CR 33.

Still, an almost certain win for Anubis' character.