PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Anubis]

What was wrong with my calculations?

And there are at least a few mistakes with this "combat". If we are going all out, lead with a disjunction, use a quickened haste, *then* hit the fighter with your bang spell....

Also, if the fighter activates his boots and is already within melee range, he can do a full round attack (ouch).

And why is Mr. Wizard using an 11th level spell slot to stand next to the Fighter *and* make a touch attack!?!? And it only does 200 points of damage....(on average)

11th: maximized empowered x4 Chain Lightning (20d6 + 200% = 120 (maxed) + 2 * 70 = 260, half 130)

I'd probably just use a maximized meteor swarm, do 144 points of damage from a distance (no save).

Even if this doesn't manage to kill the fighter, we are at least out of sword reach (maybe) and can blast him over and over again till the fighter dies....

NO, in the round you Haste yourself, you can only take a partial action.

The rest of your arguments are viable, however, and only strengthens my point.

 

[Anubis]

Sorry, my math was off. However, to use Anubis' word: "On average, the fighter will crit the wizard." Poof! Dead Wizard.

As for the wizard always winning every battle, that is true if he has initiative and you consider a fled foe a win. However, since that Fighter can always go get his friends and then attack the wizard when he least expects it, the situation is again fixed.

High level characters are all powerful, no matter their class. When you consider that they do not operate in a vaccuum (where these tests have been prepared) then you will realize that it is in part their resources beyond magic items that makes them powerful.

I believe it has been shown by others that your wizard is not guaranteed to win the battle. Try again.

Now you're the one adding factors that do not belong in the equation.

This is a duel, so if Fighter got his friends, Wizard would get his. ANYTHING Fighter can do, Wizard can match him. On top of that, Fighter CAN'T match everything Wizard can do. Wizard COULD have opened with Haste and Dimensional Anchor, then used Improved Invisibility and Fly, THEN gone up and used these spells. I eliminated the middle part, seeing as it's almost guaranteed and has NO effect on the fight.

What's more, it has ZERO bearing on the question at hand, which is about Empower Spell being allowed to stack being RIDICULOUSLY BROKEN. Has such, we must take solid situtaitons using the power at hand. No way should such a small feat be able to eliminate Epic Level Characters like that. THAT is my point.

 

[Thanee]

But still, you had to rub my nose in it that I read it the wrong way long, long ago?

Thanks Thanee (not)!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Anubis]

OK, and here I am to play devil's advocate (sorry, can't resist).

How much damage, on average, will the 40th level fighter do? (using the given NPC, and switching out one feat for a more advantageous feat, much the same as you switched out Brew Potion in favor of Empower)?

At this point, I'm sort of curious if the damage levels equate...

First off, which feat switch are you wanting?

Second, they're both Level 30, Fighter is not Level 40. I'm using the ones from the back of the ELH.

As for average damage, Fighter deals about 20 damage per hit on average.

 

[Anubis]

I just realized something. I've posted what, three times in this thread? (Four now, I suppose.)

I haven't been trolled so successfully in years. Anubis, I salute you! You're a master at the craft.

Now I'm gonna go read some other thread. Preferably one that doesn't involve dodging flecks of spittle from the raving OP.

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to show everybody how broken stacking Empower Spell is.

People have it all wrong.

I'm NOT saying Empower Spell is brokwn, I'm saying STACKING IT is broken.

 

[DarkJester]

Vorpal only works with the NATURAL threat range of the weapon, so making it Keen wouldn't help, and the damage wouldn't be enough to take Wizard out.

Where is this errata at? I checked DMG errate and the FAQ...

I think its just a popular house rule.

 

[kreynolds]

Vorpal only works with the NATURAL threat range of the weapon, so making it Keen wouldn't help, and the damage wouldn't be enough to take Wizard out.

I don't think I can say this any other way but....

WRONG

Hey, I used all-caps, so that means I can't be argued against.

Howdy Skip,

I have a question regarding burst enhancements, vorpal enhancements, etc. These enhancements activate when you score a critical hit. My question is this: Will the Improved Critical feat or the Keen weapon enhancement, which both increase the threat range of the weapon, also apply to the burst/vorpal enhancement?

Yes (but if you want to bar that in your game you won't get any grief from me).

There seem to be two sides to this argument.
1) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the end-result threat range of the weapon (i.e. they take into account Improved Critical or Keen).

This one's technically correct.

2) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the original unmodified threat range of the weapon.

This one probably is less problematical in the long run.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

By the rules, any weapon enhancement that functions on a critical hit uses the fully modified threat range of the weapon, not just the original.

 

[IceBear]

Anubis, you haven't proved to me that stacking empower is broke. You have proven that in the right circumstances one PC can defeat another. As was asked before, what kind of damage can the fighter dish out? What if the fighter decided to take Improved Initiative and won the initiative? What if the fighter knew he was going to be taking on a wizard and prepared accordingly.

I'm not surprised in the least that in a straight up fight a wizard beat a fighter. I don't even think you need Epic rules or empowered to pull that off after 14th level anyway.

Anyway, I admire your passion, but after, what - 3 threads on this now - I think you should let it go. Those that haven't been convinced by now probably won't be.

IceBear

 

[Anubis]

I don't think I can say this any other way but....

WRONG

Hey, I used all-caps, so that means I can't be argued against.

By the rules, any weapon enhancement that functions on a critical hit uses the fully modified threat range of the weapon, not just the original.

Using one broken rule to throw out an argument about another broken rule not being broken just makes you look silly.

That would be like saying Harm isn't broken because one can use Heal to reverse it. Silly.

 

[Anubis]

Anubis, you haven't proved to me that stacking empower is broke. You have proven that in the right circumstances one PC can defeat another. As was asked before, what kind of damage can the fighter dish out? What if the fighter decided to take Improved Initiative and won the initiative? What if the fighter knew he was going to be taking on a wizard and prepared accordingly.

I'm not surprised in the least that in a straight up fight a wizard beat a fighter. I don't even think you need Epic rules or empowered to pull that off after 14th level anyway.

Anyway, I admire your passion, but after, what - 3 threads on this now - I think you should let it go. Those that haven't been convinced by now probably won't be.

IceBear

Until someone can show me ANY situtation in which Empower Spell DOESN'T sway EVERYTHING toward Wizard against ANY of the other NPCs presented in the ELH (since that is the only true way to test, using "equal" characters.), there is no way to show that it isn't broken.