proposal: adjustment to time XP

renau1g

Villager
Minor thing, we don't have time xp in LEB, it's RP's. Essentially then it would double the value of RP's? Or would it be 2 RP's/month of adventure, 4 for DM's?

I'm less enthusiastic about the partial RP's here in LEB as it's very easy in L4W because the XP is set, but here some people could have 2.3 RP's. A bit more cumbersome IMO.
 

evilbob

Villager
Sorry, yes: double the value of RPs. Double whatever it is we get so that time rewards help move everyone along better to make up for slow games. And yes, this would double treasure rewards from time as well.


I have no issue with 2.3 RPs, personally. That just means next time I earn 1.7 I'll have 4 (instead of 3 if we rounded down).

If the decimal (or comma if you're in some areas of the world) is the problem, maybe the solution is allowing people to round up? Which is worse?
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
With the current setup:
- XP awards are double. It takes 5 standard encounters to level.
- 1 RP = 1 monster of your level. It takes 10 RP to level.

Doubling the XP awarded for RP would make it take 5 RP to level (and gain a treasure parcel I'm assuming). This enforces 1 level every 5 months. This is also very close to the recently passed "earned 4 RP to level" rule. I'd suggest changing that to 5 RP just to keep this consistent.

I would not, however, go with any decimal RP. If you are concerned, just change the wording from "per full month" to "per full month and part thereof".

Still deciding on whether I would vote for this, but the above is what I would vote for if I did.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
I think this is a matter between the DM and players.

The reason WotC has 10 encounters between levels is that it takes multiple encounters for players to not only get accustomed to new abilities of their own PCs, but it also takes a while for players to get accustomed to new abilities of the other PCs at each level.

Doubling the RP doesn't mitigate the issue between fast and slow games.

If a slow game is 2 levels per year and a fast game is 5 levels per year, doubling RP will take the slow game to 3 levels per year and the fast game to 6 levels per year. At the same time, the players in the slow game have even less time to get accustomed to their PC's and the other PCs' abilities (because the game is slow, those abilities are not being used).

If the game is going slow, the players should talk to the DM (and vice versa). At the moment, all 3 of my games here are dragging and it's pretty disappointing, but I don't think that leveling PCs faster is the answer to that.

Since the fix doesn't seem to address the problem, I'm leaning towards voting no.
 

evilbob

Villager
Doubling the XP awarded for RP would make it take 5 RP to level (and gain a treasure parcel I'm assuming). This enforces 1 level every 5 months. This is also very close to the recently passed "earned 4 RP to level" rule. I'd suggest changing that to 5 RP just to keep this consistent.

I would not, however, go with any decimal RP. If you are concerned, just change the wording from "per full month" to "per full month and part thereof".
I'm unfamiliar with what you mean by "earned 4 RP to level" rule - what does that mean?

Also, I'm totally good with "per full month and part thereof". Basically, the idea is that the poor guy 27 days into a month just doesn't end up missing out.
 

evilbob

Villager
Doubling the RP doesn't mitigate the issue between fast and slow games.
Well, I believe the exact opposite of this statement. I think it does exactly that: it helps give the slow games more XP so they can level faster. The fast games get less time XP but more actual XP. (Why do we have time XP in the first place?)

I think this is a matter between the DM and players.
I also completely disagree. First, no amount of PMing will change how fast some people's lives work. If I have 15 mins a day, that's all I have. It doesn't matter who says what: time doesn't change. Second, I dislike encouraging confrontation between DM and player when it's possible to solve the issue with a rules change. Some people just aren't going to complain no matter how bad it gets - but they might just leave. Not everyone is up for confronting their DM and complaining about the speed of the game. So why force it? Better to solve the problem globally rather than depend on people complaining to fix it.
 

renau1g

Villager
I'm unfamiliar with what you mean by "earned 4 RP to level" rule - what does that mean?

Also, I'm totally good with "per full month and part thereof". Basically, the idea is that the poor guy 27 days into a month just doesn't end up missing out.
I believe sg was referring to the vote to allow someone a second PC once they received 4 RP's, rather than the previous level your PC.

If someone was at 27 days, I would certainly bump them up to the next RP anyways.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
Well, I believe the exact opposite of this statement. I think it does exactly that: it helps give the slow games more XP so they can level faster. The fast games get less time XP but more actual XP. (Why do we have time XP in the first place?)
I don't understand what you are claiming here. How is my statement "If a slow game is 2 levels per year and a fast game is 5 levels per year, doubling RP will take the slow game to 3 levels per year and the fast game to 6 levels per year." not valid?

Maybe instead of posting a link to a different system, maybe you could post your actual proposal along with examples of how it would help the slow group without speeding up the fast group as well.

I also completely disagree. First, no amount of PMing will change how fast some people's lives work. If I have 15 mins a day, that's all I have. It doesn't matter who says what: time doesn't change. Second, I dislike encouraging confrontation between DM and player when it's possible to solve the issue with a rules change. Some people just aren't going to complain no matter how bad it gets - but they might just leave. Not everyone is up for confronting their DM and complaining about the speed of the game. So why force it? Better to solve the problem globally rather than depend on people complaining to fix it.
I wasn't proposing a confrontation between the players and the DM. I was proposing a discussion between them. I do think that nearly all players (DMs included) can be more due diligent in posting frequency. It's usually a matter of self motivation and desire. Most people have the ability to check and post more than once every three days on the boards, but not everyone does it even as often as once per day.

With regard to games with few encounters vs. games with many encounters, presumably players who think their adventure has too few encounters can again talk with the DM. If they cannot compromise, the player is always free to leave that game and move on to another one if the player wants a more action filled adventure.

I don't see how your rules change helps any of this, so please tell us how it does so. All your rules change appears to do is have everyone level faster.

What might help is for people to commit to a certain posting frequency and then live up to that commitment (shy of emergencies, vacations, etc.).
 

renau1g

Villager
It won't help out one group over the other, but it will help the slow group. Not to the detriment of the faster group, but at least it's something.

re: posting commitments. I've had people commit before to min. 1/day. Everyone's onboard, the adventure is rolling smoothly, then things slow down. The DM can always NPC those who fail at meeting the commitments or ask them to leave if it is frequent, but then you have poor feelings, breaks in continuity, and that's hard to recover from.
 

EvolutionKB

Villager
I'm inclined to vote no on this as well. Speedy advancement is fun, I agree, but too fast is another. By doubling RPs you are lessening the encounters that people can use their cool abilities and for DMs lessening the times the cool abilities of PCs can be used in different situations.

As a PC and as a DM I'd rather see PCs use their abilities in different and fun situations rather than seeing them used once or twice before leveling and gaining more abilties. The proposal would put more challenge on DMs because of rapidly changing abilties and less encounters per level to make the encounters for that level be less challenging and fun.

Edit: I used to post religiously 1/day. I know what it took and I see where KD is coming from. I got frustrated sometimes as well. I had so much fun doing it. My games on enworld were all the gaming I got, and I couldn't understand how other couldn't have 15 min a day to make a post. Now that I'm busier in RL it's about 1/3 days. I hope KD gains more of a life to see how sweet things can really be ;)
 
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KarinsDad

Villager
I hope KD gains more of a life to see how sweet things can really be ;)
Let's see. At my peak last month (pre-one of my fellow gamers having a baby and our 3 table games per week got canceled since he was DM for 2 of them), I was working 40+ hours per week, taking my daughter to her activities and sticking around for them 7 hours per week, posting here several hours per week (a single round often takes 1 to 2 hours of prep work as a DM here), table gaming for 10 to 12 hours per week (my wife and daughter played in one of those games, woo hoo), playing Xbox (or other family activities) with my wife/daughter 2 to 4 hours per week, exercising a half hour per day, going to various ball games once or twice a month, going to the movies with family and friends a couple times per month, and watching a dozen or so TV shows that I enjoy every week. Plus chores (the biggest one being remodeling my basement at the moment), errands, sleeping, and driving time (which alone averages close to an hour per day due to me living out in the boonies). ;)

There is plenty of time to have a full life and do whatever you want. 5-15 minutes a day as a player here? Piece of cake if that is one of your preferred hobbies. Some people who say otherwise are being disingenuous. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree. It's like people who claim that they don't have enough time to exercise every week. That's a personal choice, not a limit of time for most people. Like many things in life, being a player in a group here is a commitment and not a heavy one at that. It can be done instead of watching commercials on TV, or while eating lunch at work (especially if one posts from work only). DMing here is more of a commitment. But if one cannot find the time, then maybe he should back off from some of his commitments here so that he can have "more of a life" elsewhere. Like watching the boob tube for 4 hours every night.

In reality, this proposal is about speeding up the slow games. Every player being committed would assist in that. If a given player cannot be committed for a given period of time (yup, things happen in life), he should tell the other players so that they don't sit around waiting for him to post. If a given player cannot be committed for an extended period of time (like CaBaNa couldn't over the summer), then he should bow out. But, just disappearing for a few days or a week or more without telling anyone is not cool IMO.

Another possibility is to have "fast games" and "slow games" by design. When proposing the adventure, the DM states which it is. If a player is in a fast game, that person is expected to post every day (except maybe weekends). A slow game is designed to allow players that have more personal conflicts to post at a more leisurely pace. That way, everyone knows up front what is expected and the chance of frustration might be lessened.

Another possibility is to have more shorter adventures. Some people are able to commit for a month or two, but 6 months is out of the question for them. Another advantage of this is that players would be able to have different DMs and different other players in some of the adventures and hence, would get to interact with more people here.

Do you have any other suggestions Evo that don't involve my lifestyle? :lol:


PS. Sheeva and Feall have gotten 1 level in the last 11 months here (10 months for Feall). When they do level, they'll be jumping from level 5 to level 7 (and possibly most of the way to 8th) which is a huge jump in power. That's an entire level that we don't get to play them. I suggest that we work on a proposal to ensure that PCs can level the moment they get enough XP, even if it is within the same game day.
 

evilbob

Villager
"Posting frequency" isn't something likely to change. You can ask people, you can discuss with them, you can confront them - but some of that stuff is set in stone. People's lives change. Folks drop in and out. That's the nature of the beast; we have to work around that.


Some people are good at opening dialog and discussing things without confrontation. Others aren't. I'd rather have a solution for everyone that doesn't involve forcing people through that door. Remember - not everyone here has the same skill sets.


Example: group A gains 1 level per 3 months. Fast. Group B gains 1 level per 6 months. Slow. Let's say time XP gains you 1 level over 6 months.

With time XP, Group A gained 1 level in 3, 1 in 3, and 1 for 6 months of time. That's 3 levels over 6 months. Group B gained 1 in 6, and 1 for 6 months of time. That's 2. 3:2

Without time, Group A gained 2 levels over 6 months and group B gained 1. 2:1

3:2 > 2:1

This is very simplistic but the math holds up under more complex circumstances. Time XP favors slow groups: fact.


When it comes to "people might level too fast" - I submit this is impossible. It takes weeks or months for most encounters, much less levels. This is still nowhere near tabletop. Plus, people can always make second characters if they want more lower-level play. No, I submit that leveling too fast is impossible, but leveling too slowly is. (As I said in the L4W thread: the game goes to level 30 for a reason!)


r1, thanks for clarifying the "gain 4 RP to start a 2nd character" rule. I would have no problem changing that back to "gained 5 RP" instead if that makes sense to everyone.
 

FourMonos

Villager
Okay, so I noticed that EB has made several proposals on L4W and LEB. From this, I surmise there is a master plan at work, and he is slowly taking over the world. I see two options:
A) We report him to a higher authority. Most likely this is r1
B) We willingly become his minions now and reap the benifits of his evil plans.

I vote B. :)

On a more serious note: If this goes through, will we need to change the time to make a second character proposal (changed from one level to one level or 4RP). My understanding of the 4 RP was put in place to ensure the posters were committed (four months of posting time) and not going to disappear. Shortening the time requirement (faster RP) to make a second character goes against the previous sentiment.

As always, appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
 

evilbob

Villager
Gah, you've figured out my plan! FourMonos, I need to you step into this dark room for a moment... :p

Actually, changing the value of the RPs should not change the speed at which they are acquired.
 

FourMonos

Villager
stonegod, no disrespect, but didn't you notice that r1 hit vampire status? He has got Twilight fans and emo teens to do his bidding now. You can't mess with that kind of power...

Yeah, oh YEAH! I can do everything! - sg
 
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evilbob

Villager
Oooo, burnt. And here I'm just some thing no one can pronounce.

He means to say that stonegod is dream. -evilbob (not stonegod, really)
 
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