(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[LogicsFate]

it's a scary class, were I a judge I'd probly hesitate too, though with the nature of play by post it would take many years of specific adventuring to make it really powerful, or one crazy in the head DM

 

[GnomeWorks]

it's a scary class, were I a judge I'd probly hesitate too, though with the nature of play by post it would take many years of specific adventuring to make it really powerful, or one crazy in the head DM

I don't see how it's "scary" anymore; I'd definitely agree that it started out that way, but it's definitely not anymore . For one, you have to remember that most monster's abilities are incredibly reminiscent of spells of one form or another; talents are therefore pretty much arcane spells that don't scale, with possibly a few added benefits (no countering, can cast in armor, etc).

Sure, learning a red dragon's breath weapon is impressive, but meteor swarm can make it pretty insignificant, especially considering that a learner's save DC will always be pretty low. Also, a wizard will be throwing around meteor swarm and a few other high-level spells all day long, and even more with the assistance of magic items; a learner is limited to, at most, 15 + his Wisdom modifier talents/day, and can only know 21 + his Intelligence modifier. Those numbers are pretty limited compared to what a wizard of comparable level can dish out.

Yes, there are probably around a dozen talents that are scary, and perhaps it isn't what they can learn but when they can learn it. A learner gaining the petrification ability of a cockatrice a few levels before a wizard can pretrify may seem overpowering, but the learner's saving throw DC is going to be so low that it's probably not much of an issue; since it's CR 3, the learner could learn it at first level, and since you need to be 6th to get into the class as a bard, you would get it at 7th; the DC would be 11 + his Charisma modifier, which for a bard at 6th would probably be +5 at most, so you're dealing with a DC 16 petrification effect. At 7th, that isn't that impressive, especially when characters are possibly dealing with the threat of petrification at 3rd with a DC 13. A wizard can get the same effect at 11th, with a DC 16 + his Intelligence mod, which is probably +6 at that point; the learner's would be 18, accounting for level and probably a boost in Charisma. So the learner may get to petrification first - assuming he even encounters a cockatrice or similar creature! - while the wizard's is simply better in all respects. It's not even a guarantee that a learner will get petrification, whereas if the wizard wants it, he gets it.

 

[LogicsFate]

It's not that that's scary, it's a bit reminince of 3.0 psionics. Being able to use their strongest power over and over again. And then being able to load metamagic onto the strongest talents without a major loss of potential


Clarification, I'm fine with the class, but if I was nervious about the class that would be the reason

 

[Rystil Arden]

it's a scary class, were I a judge I'd probly hesitate too, though with the nature of play by post it would take many years of specific adventuring to make it really powerful, or one crazy in the head DM

I agree that this class is scary. If I were a GM, I would not allow it. As it is, I shudder at the fact that Shapechange allows the acquisition of Su abilities, and that is a 9th-level spell. I'm not a judge though, so I don't matter

 

[GnomeWorks]

It's not that that's scary, it's a bit reminince of 3.0 psionics. Being able to use their strongest power over and over again. And then being able to load metamagic onto the strongest talents without a major loss of potential

Hmm... perhaps that should be reworked. I considered arguing with you, but then I thought about the dangers of a maximized empowered dragon's breath ... I think that needs to be changed.

I agree that this class is scary. If I were a GM, I would not allow it. As it is, I shudder at the fact that Shapechange allows the acquisition of Su abilities, and that is a 9th-level spell. I'm not a judge though, so I don't matter

But shapechange allows you to use those abilities indefinitely; in addition, you can shapechange into anything. The learner's abilities are relatively random, and you may or may not be able to acquire a specific ability; in addition, the learner is limited in how many she can know, and how many times a day she can use her abilities.

 

[Rystil Arden]

But shapechange allows you to use those abilities indefinitely; in addition, you can shapechange into anything. The learner's abilities are relatively random, and you may or may not be able to acquire a specific ability; in addition, the learner is limited in how many she can know, and how many times a day she can use her abilities.

In the cases of the truly powerful abilities, however, one round per level is more than long enough. The defense that the Learner might not get a crazy ability does not preclude the fact that she may, so it isn't really a good defense, particularly in a Living campaign. If it was a home campaign where I was the only GM, then I could make sure not to throw any monsters against him whose abilities would scare me, but in LEW, the last GM may have been foolish enough to do so, and now I'm stuck with the result. Hence, I believe that an LEW type world is the most problematic possible venue for a class like the Learner.

 

[GnomeWorks]

In the cases of the truly powerful abilities, however, one round per level is more than long enough. The defense that the Learner might not get a crazy ability does not preclude the fact that she may, so it isn't really a good defense, particularly in a Living campaign. If it was a home campaign where I was the only GM, then I could make sure not to throw any monsters against him whose abilities would scare me, but in LEW, the last GM may have been foolish enough to do so, and now I'm stuck with the result. Hence, I believe that an LEW type world is the most problematic possible venue for a class like the Learner.

Fair enough - LEW is probably a more dangerous environment to have a learner be in.

However, consider what creatures have those crazy abilities, and what the learner has to go through in order to learn them. The learner has to spend an entire round doing nothing but attempting to learn the ability (unless she is 10th as a learner), be in close proximity to the creature, and then make a check to learn the ability - meaning that the monster also has to use it, unless it is something that's always active. I would say that that combination of events makes learning a much more difficult process than simply casting shapechange.

Also, on another note, I fixed the metamagic thing... she can now use the Empower and Quicken Spell-like Ability feats, but those are limited by uses/day, just as monsters are, and she is prohibited from using metamagic feats on her talents.

 

[Rystil Arden]

However, consider what creatures have those crazy abilities, and what the learner has to go through in order to learn them. The learner has to spend an entire round doing nothing but attempting to learn the ability (unless she is 10th as a learner), be in close proximity to the creature, and then make a check to learn the ability - meaning that the monster also has to use it, unless it is something that's always active.

Your argument is that most creatures with those crazy abilities are highly dangerous, making the observation process dangerous itself, right? (I think that's where you were going with the above). Not always, though.

The Choker is a fairly harmless CR 2 creature that has one of the most overpowered abilities in the game, and it is always active, so no worries about it not using it during your observation round.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Your argument is that most creatures with those crazy abilities are highly dangerous, making the observation process dangerous itself, right? (I think that's where you were going with the above). Not always, though.

That is the core of my argument, yes. I think it's a fair argument, and while it may not hold up in some cases, it does in most.

The Choker is a fairly harmless CR 2 creature that has one of the most overpowered abilities in the game, and it is always active, so no worries about it not using it during your observation round.

If you take a look at the earlier posts in this thread, you will see that the choker has been the primary problem with this class the entire time. It's outrageously low Charisma, low CR, and single broken ability make this creature a major balancing point.

I honestly don't know what to do with quickness. The current system works relatively well (in my opinion), with that one exception. I don't want to adjudicate it as taking more talent slots, as that opens up a whole mess of "do we adjudicate this to cost more or not" discussions. The system needs to be easy to use, as there is already enough complexity.

We could implement a mechanic wherein Special Qualities require more talent slots to use. That would be one way to solve the problem; requiring two or three talent slots instead of one would make it slightly more balanced. If you equate talent slots to spell level (a very rough guide, and probably not entirely accurate), then requiring three talent slots would make quickness roughly equivalent to a third-level spell - and you're also using, at 10th level, roughly 1/5 of your available resources to use it. One could easily make an in-game reason for SQ abilities much more difficult to emulate than SA or other abilities. Do you think that that would be sufficiently balanced, or were you thinking along other lines?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I honestly don't know what to do with quickness.

I'm not sure what to do either. I didn't even really mean to critique so much, as I will readily admit that I don't have the answer either. I was just commenting that I wouldn't allow it in my campaign in the current form, and if I was a Judge, I would vote 'No'

My first thought would be to simply limit the Learning ability to actually monster attacks, not Special Qualities. Not only Quickness, but also most other things I would never want a PC to have are all Special Qualities. For the attacks, I do buy your argument that the Learner's low DC counteracts the ability to pick up extremely powerful attacks.