(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[GnomeWorks]

Never mind, I had missed where you said that the effective spell level was learner level -1. The problem with this is that a Bard6/learner10 will be able to use talents as 9th level abilities. On the other hand, a sorceror9/learner7 will only be using talents as 6th level abilities. I think the equivalent spell level needs to be based on a combination of arcane caster levels and learner caster levels.

I don't see a problem with the disparity in effective spell level. Learner talents, while related to magic, are not magic; therefore skill in arcane magic should not be reflected in ability with talents, and vice-versa.

My mistake, I meant to put:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + 1/2the learner's caster level + the learner's Charisma modifier.
With the learner's caster level being learner levels+arcane caster levels.

This would put the progression similar to a sorceror, though all of the talents/day would be at max level, which might be a bit overpowered. Hmmm, that gets up in the vicinity of 20/day at learner lvl 10, which seems to be a bit much. That's the problem with getting away from traditional spell levels I guess. Not sure what would be appropriate.

I don't see a problem with 10 + effective spell level + cha mod. That puts them at base 19 for a 10th level learner, without being able to boost that using traditional feats - sure, Ability Focus works, but it has to be used on each talent individually (I'll note that in the description in case that wasn't clear). A sorcerer at 19th level (which would be equivalent) would probably have an incredibly huge charisma (don't forget that learners have to juggle wisdom, intelligence, and charisma all equally, or suffer in either talents/day, talents known, or talent DC), and can take feats to boost their DCs.

Caster level with talents being learner level + arcane caster level is fine with me. I'd prefer something more like 1/2 arcane caster level, but that's getting a little too much complex for my tastes. Best to keep it as simple as possible.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Anybody else?

Any other judges want to throw in their opinions?

 

[Knight Otu]

A learner's caster level with her talents is equal to her learner level. ...
A learner's caster level with her talents is equal to her learner level + her caster level in her previous arcane spellcasting class (if she had more than one, she uses to meet the prerequisites of the learner class; if more than one fulfill this criteria, then she may choose which class to use).

These two sentences conflict. Also, I see no mention that the effective spell level of a talent is based on learner level.

Observation (Su): The primary way that a learner learns blue spells is through observation. As a standard action, a learner can watch monsters present within 60 feet. If any of them should use an Su or Sp ability until the learner’s next action, the learner may attempt to learn the talent associated with that ability.

Reference to blue magic.

Balancewise, I rather dislike that the effective spell level of a learner is based on the learner level, meaning that eventually all talents will be saved against as if they were 9th level spells, and ignore things like globes of invulnerability...
And then there is Ability Focus - I hope the intent is Ability Focus (specific talent) instead of Ability Focus (talents)?

However, the class effectively requires three good stats - Int, Wis and Cha. This "MAD" may help to keep learners in check.

 

[GnomeWorks]

These two sentences conflict. Also, I see no mention that the effective spell level of a talent is based on learner level.

Fixed.

Reference to blue magic.

Well, I was bound to miss one... will be fixed shortly.

Balancewise, I rather dislike that the effective spell level of a learner is based on the learner level, meaning that eventually all talents will be saved against as if they were 9th level spells, and ignore things like globes of invulnerability...

Well, I was considering a mechanic whereby all talents are at 1st level, and the learner can have a talent take up more than one talent known slot to increase its spell level (so, a frost worm's trill could count as two talents known, and have the effectiveness of a 3rd level spell, or something), but it seemed a little cumbersome with the learner's very limited talents known.

And then there is Ability Focus - I hope the intent is Ability Focus (specific talent) instead of Ability Focus (talents)?

That is the intent and should be clarified in the text.

However, the class effectively requires three good stats - Int, Wis and Cha. This "MAD" may help to keep learners in check.

That is my opinion, as well.

 

[Bront]

I'm not a big fan of the fact that a learner can swap out abilities on the fly basicly even if he's full. I think he should be able to drop one at any time, though it should take some time (Perhaps 1 hour of meditation to clear his mind of a particular ability, but it is gone forever and must be relearned again using the normal rules).

The DC to learn an ability seems somewhat low to me. Consider this.
An Average save for a 8th level character's DC is 16 (1/2 HD or 4rd level spells, +2 for relivent stat of 14, which seems reasonable). An 8th level character is likely to have a knowledge skill of +10-13 (8-11 ranks, +2 for INT of 14, which seems reasonable). So, the character has a 70-85% chance of learning an ability, which seems a bit too easy. Perhaps you should add a +5 modifier to the DC check (I thought of +10, but that's realy rough) to make it a little less of a gimme.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I'm not a big fan of the fact that a learner can swap out abilities on the fly basicly even if he's full. I think he should be able to drop one at any time, though it should take some time (Perhaps 1 hour of meditation to clear his mind of a particular ability, but it is gone forever and must be relearned again using the normal rules).

I don't really see an issue with the learner being able to drop an ability on the fly to learn a new one. There is a time limit on it, and I don't see it coming up too often.

Oh, and I assumed that it was understood that, if that's done, the ability swapped out is gone and must be relearned through the normal method, if so desired.

The DC to learn an ability seems somewhat low to me. Consider this.
An Average save for a 8th level character's DC is 16 (1/2 HD or 4rd level spells, +2 for relivent stat of 14, which seems reasonable). An 8th level character is likely to have a knowledge skill of +10-13 (8-11 ranks, +2 for INT of 14, which seems reasonable). So, the character has a 70-85% chance of learning an ability, which seems a bit too easy. Perhaps you should add a +5 modifier to the DC check (I thought of +10, but that's realy rough) to make it a little less of a gimme.

Again, I don't see an issue with this. A wizard learning a spell from a stolen spellbook isn't too difficult, is it? The learner learning talents is slightly more arduous and difficult; the learner can't even really choose his spell selection, unless he goes out looking specifically for a certain monster (which could be hazardous to his health, if it's a monster a bit tougher than his level can handle). So I don't see an issue with the learner having a pretty darn good chance of learning an ability the first try. If it is that big of a deal I suppose we can throw on a +5 mod to the DC for learning, but I don't think it's necessary.

 

[Bront]

Good points, and I think you're right on all of them. Though, even though the learning from scratch is understood, it never hurts to spell it out, simply because otherwise someone will bring it up (especialy if they fail to learn the ability).

Still glad I asked, because it did force the defence with brings up good points about some of the weaknesses of the class.

 

[IcyCool]

A learner can use any talent she knows at will, with the following qualifications:

You state that a Learner can use their talents at will, but then later mention that they get a certain number of uses per day. You should remove the at will reference.

And get to posting in "The Lost Gem" adventure. Your players are waiting on you.

 

[GnomeWorks]

You state that a Learner can use their talents at will, but then later mention that they get a certain number of uses per day. You should remove the at will reference.

Fixed.

And get to posting in "The Lost Gem" adventure. Your players are waiting on you.

Updated.

Also, right now, I'm considering adding something to the learner, to the effect that, at 1st level, you can use one spell you know from an arcane class as a talent. So, for example, if you know magic missile, you can decide to use that as a learner talent. I don't know if it would change (from spell to talent), or be usable as both (spell and talent), but it's just an idea so that the talents/day are somewhat useful at first when the learner hasn't learned any talents.

 

[Bront]

Also, right now, I'm considering adding something to the learner, to the effect that, at 1st level, you can use one spell you know from an arcane class as a talent. So, for example, if you know magic missile, you can decide to use that as a learner talent. I don't know if it would change (from spell to talent), or be usable as both (spell and talent), but it's just an idea so that the talents/day are somewhat useful at first when the learner hasn't learned any talents.

Maybe you can simply add spells per day to the arcane classes similar to how the dragon deciple does, where you get one more spell per day for one of your levels.