[Proposal] The Transitive Isles

[covaithe]

This thread is to talk about the Transitive Isles setting proposal.

 

[covaithe]

I had a read through this proposal's wiki pages, too. I was looking for things that need addressing before this setting proposal can be considered viable, i.e. ready to play in. There's not a lot; this setting is damn near ready to go. Here's what I did write down, though:

• Regional benefits need to be discussed and balanced.
• Should separate out the character creation rules (e.g. 25 point buy, must use approved template, MM races will be subject to scrutiny for balance issues as well as correctness) from the setting stuff. It may go back together in the same document later once we've decided on a setting
• map. We ought to have one, even if it's vague and known to be inaccurate. I don't care if it's the one I drew or not.
• Kingdom of Allaria? I just noticed this in the backstory of Daunton. Sounds good, but maybe a paragraph of general knowledge is called for.
• Brotherhood of the Bright Eon? This is the cult that brought down the Five. Maybe a bit of backstory on them and what they stand for? Could be a good recurring villain. I admit I'm picking nits a bit in pointing out this one; it could be ignored. Although, reading farther, it seems like they took down the Brotherhood of the Spun Staff too, and have a complete book of the portal codes? Maybe they're more important...
• If Daunton is going to have a Library as part of its regional benefits, there should be a section on the library in the wiki.
• Island #3. I think I called this Kestoriel on my map. Needs a writeup. There was an early suggestion that this island could be fey-linked. That might tie in well with the bit in Daunton's writeup about how the Five got the fey to leave Daunton's island mostly alone, but now they're coming back.
• Imperium needs a final writeup based on discussions page.
• Pantheon needs to be integrated into the setting proposal. Origin story. I need to go over how gods work in 4e again, but I feel like there's more to be done there, mechanically speaking.
• Overall, needs just a bit more work on consistency, proofreading, using the right names in all the right places (there are still a few instances of "island #5" and such).

Again, this is all just my opinion.

 

[garyh]

I really like the Shifting Seas idea. It really lends itself to a shared world where DMs might go different directions with things like travel, and lets new elements be easily added in.

I'm also a huge fan of Bacarte. Everything is better with pirates, and it gives a great way to easily put the Monster Manual races into play.

The Imperium is also promising. Having them play a small role in the local area works, and then allows for a natural place to go when PC's are powerful enough to go abroad in the world.

 

[garyh]

Crosspost! Let me comment on your comments, covaithe.

[*] Regional benefits need to be discussed and balanced.

I'd like to see FR style regional benefits as well. They don't look too hard to implement, it'll just take some time and creativity.

[*] Should separate out the character creation rules (e.g. 25 point buy, must use approved template, MM races will be subject to scrutiny for balance issues as well as correctness) from the setting stuff. It may go back together in the same document later once we've decided on a setting

Agreed. I think, outside of regional benefits, setting and chargen should be handeled separately.

[*] map. We ought to have one, even if it's vague and known to be inaccurate. I don't care if it's the one I drew or not.

Do you have a link to your map? I think I saw it, but want to make sure. I'm thinking using a GIMP/hex map like Goblin King's Zheen maps would be good. Nice, old school flavor, and easy for DM's to update with a consistent look

[*] Kingdom of Allaria? I just noticed this in the backstory of Daunton. Sounds good, but maybe a paragraph of general knowledge is called for.

Agreed. That general knowledge doesn't even have to be accurate. Could be legend, given the time elapsed.

[*] Brotherhood of the Bright Eon? This is the cult that brought down the Five. Maybe a bit of backstory on them and what they stand for? Could be a good recurring villain. I admit I'm picking nits a bit in pointing out this one; it could be ignored. Although, reading farther, it seems like they took down the Brotherhood of the Spun Staff too, and have a complete book of the portal codes? Maybe they're more important...

Agreed. An evil cult makes a great villain. The Five might have broken the cult, but there could be isolated cells still causing trouble that might come together for bigger mischief.

[*] If Daunton is going to have a Library as part of its regional benefits, there should be a section on the library in the wiki.

Good idea.

[*] Island #3. I think I called this Kestoriel on my map. Needs a writeup. There was an early suggestion that this island could be fey-linked. That might tie in well with the bit in Daunton's writeup about how the Five got the fey to leave Daunton's island mostly alone, but now they're coming back.

Fey works, and isn't too present on the other isles, so including it here makes sense.

[*] Imperium needs a final writeup based on discussions page.

Yup. I'm thinking the Imperium could be relatively recent. 5, 10 years or so. So they haven't had a chance to change the other isles too much, or give up hope of the mother country finding them.

[*] Pantheon needs to be integrated into the setting proposal. Origin story. I need to go over how gods work in 4e again, but I feel like there's more to be done there, mechanically speaking.

I need to read up more on the previous pantheon discussions. I like the idea of 7-12 dieties, with different names in different cultures. I don't want to see 100's of dieties.

I think there's a lot of potential in this setting, and agree that it's not too far from being playable.

 

[covaithe]

Addressing something Graf mentioned a while ago, that I didn't get around to responding to promptly. Sorry!

I'd prefer if the islands were a smaller. Right now Argonal looks like North America on my screen. Again, I'm a strong poponenet of having a modular world. I'd prefer "a not a map" that is less of a map. Where the cities seem bigger and the world less locked in.

I forgot to include a scale on the map, but I certainly didn't see Argonel being the size of North America. I was shooting for Ireland, actually; about 300 miles north to south, and maybe 200 east-west. Big enough that it takes a few weeks to walk from one end to the other, but small enough that you could sail around it in a week. Also big enough that the far side is remote and kind of mysterious to the people of Daunton. If it's only 50 miles away, you'd expect settlements and regular travel.

 

[covaithe]

I first posted the map in question here, but it's turned up one or two other places as well as part of a quote. It's just hand drawn, so not terribly easy to update. I confess a certain fondness for it, though...

 

[garyh]

I first posted the map in question here, but it's turned up one or two other places as well as part of a quote. It's just hand drawn, so not terribly easy to update. I confess a certain fondness for it, though...

That's the one I was thinking of. It's nice, and hand-drawn is cool from an "in universe" point of view. Couple issues I see are that I think Daunton's isle might dwarf the others a bit TOO much, and that the isles look a bit too close together to me.

I'll try to take a stab at drafting a GIMP/hex version tonight. Doesn't hurt to toss more ideas out there, we can always take the best of them and combine them.

 

[Graf]

Feedback! A whole thread.
I feel drunk with pleasure...

[d]--[/d]

I have a map going already actually.
PS Not drawing it myself.

Here's the current version; it's still being worked on. (I didn't want to mention it until it was done, but I don't want people to get frustrated if they're thoughts aren't included... it's happening on a budget and there is only so much futzing that can be paid for)

 

[Graf]

Everything I haven't quoted I agree with 100% and am actively working on.

• Regional benefits need to be discussed and balanced.

I'd like to see FR style regional benefits as well. They don't look too hard to implement, it'll just take some time and creativity.

I'd love to have help/input (especially specific input)
My general plan is +1 to one skill, +4 or so to something weird.
Neither should effect combat much.

• Should separate out the character creation rules (e.g. 25 point buy, must use approved template, MM races will be subject to scrutiny for balance issues as well as correctness) from the setting stuff. It may go back together in the same document later once we've decided on a setting

Agreed. I think, outside of regional benefits, setting and chargen should be handeled separately.

Either of you want to take charge of "generalizing the chargen stuff"? I'm basically creating chargen stuff because you need it to create a character and play in the world.

• Kingdom of Allaria? I just noticed this in the backstory of Daunton. Sounds good, but maybe a paragraph of general knowledge is called for.

Agreed. That general knowledge doesn't even have to be accurate. Could be legend, given the time elapsed.

edit: OK. So it go deleted during an update. Here's what I'm talking about with this comment.

I pulled it more or less directly from Zheen, with some extra stuff.

It's a way for people like GK and Halford to have their "big unexplored continent that we can fill in" as well as explain where the "culture and civilization of Daunton" came from.

It's not an idea I'm against, I just don't want the whole campaign world to be rigidly defined geographically when the game starts. Pushing the whole zone "out" gives us space. Maybe the whole living thing revolves around "reclaiming Allaria" maybe it doesn't.

If I write more I fear that they'll just be unhappy with it; since they specifically don't want a setting with any details. Since it's an "element added for others" I'm kind concerned about touching it too much.

Everything in the setting already has my finger prints all over it... and that's not so hot since I think my likes and dislikes are fairly specific.

• Brotherhood of the Bright Eon? This is the cult that brought down the Five. Maybe a bit of backstory on them and what they stand for? Could be a good recurring villain. I admit I'm picking nits a bit in pointing out this one; it could be ignored. Although, reading farther, it seems like they took down the Brotherhood of the Spun Staff too, and have a complete book of the portal codes? Maybe they're more important...

Agreed. An evil cult makes a great villain. The Five might have broken the cult, but there could be isolated cells still causing trouble that might come together for bigger mischief.

We're all on the same page with how/what they're supposed to be.
I have more ideas about them, but I'm loath to define them. They don't -have- to be well known for the setting to start. They can be a mystery that people develop and unravel together.

• Island #3. I think I called this Kestoriel on my map. Needs a writeup. There was an early suggestion that this island could be fey-linked. That might tie in well with the bit in Daunton's writeup about how the Five got the fey to leave Daunton's island mostly alone, but now they're coming back.

Fey works, and isn't too present on the other isles, so including it here makes sense.

Fey is actually supposed to be a huge part of the Daunton interior thing.

I'm planning on having a massive rift deep into the island; otherwise undeveloped so DMs can play.

I was also thinking of having the whole island be covered with mangrove trees that hold it together, calling it Kythira the living isle and having it be sacred to Aphrodite Aphrodeys (young lovers sneak away for trysts, herbalists to gather charms for love potions, etc)

I was trying to wait for somebody to do feedback... but then I was getting the map done yesterday and I needed to do something with it other than have it be a blob....

• I need to go over how gods work in 4e again, but I feel like there's more to be done there, mechanically speaking.

The only way that gods matter is that your choice gives you access to a divine feat.

Personally? I say we just let people pick one appropriate feat from the PhB and leave it at that.

I need to read up more on the previous pantheon discussions. I like the idea of 7-12 dieties, with different names in different cultures. I don't want to see 100's of dieties.

You, sir, want to look at the new gods page.

Overall, needs just a bit more work on consistency, proofreading, using the right names in all the right places (there are still a few instances of "island #5" and such).

I think there's a lot of potential in this setting, and agree that it's not too far from being playable.

I'm glad we agree about the necessary level of detail.

My big issues with the current level of readiness is just that
1. my writing is unclear and poor
2. there hasn't been too much feedback, few eyes = lower quality.

I don't mind having the setting rejected, but I'd be frustrated if it were because of poor communication.

I've attached the next map.

 

[garyh]

I have a map going already actually.
PS Not drawing it myself.

That... that's a really good map. My only question is scale - how long is the central isle north-south?

I'd love to have help/input (especially specific input)
My general plan is +1 to one skill, +4 or so to something weird.
Neither should effect combat much.

Either of you want to take charge of "generalizing the chargen stuff"? I'm basically creating chargen stuff because you need it to create a character and play in the world.

I'll see what I can come up with on the regions. I think we only need five regions to start (Daunton, Bacarte, Crescent Isle, Imperium, and Fey Island).

As for taking on chargen as a whole, I think we have the general thrust of it: Use any PHB or MM race, any PHB class, 25 point buy, and a region. Outside of that (and potential use of OOC points), what else do we need to figure?

The only way that gods matter is that your choice gives you access to a divine feat.

Personally? I say we just let people pick one appropriate feat from the PhB and leave it at that.

Agreed, lets just assign PHB god feats to L4E gods as much as possible.

You, sir, want to look at the new gods page.

I like the gods. My biggest concern is that the names are still too close to the original Greek.

 

[covaithe]

As for taking on chargen as a whole, I think we have the general thrust of it: Use any PHB or MM race, any PHB class, 25 point buy, and a region. Outside of that (and potential use of OOC points), what else do we need to figure?

Just character sheet, I think.

I like the gods. My biggest concern is that the names are still too close to the original Greek.

I've never been entirely comfortable with the names. I like the system well enough, but reading "Hadeys" makes me roll my eyes a bit. I'd be happier with fresh names.

 

[garyh]

Just character sheet, I think.



I've never been entirely comfortable with the names. I like the system well enough, but reading "Hadeys" makes me roll my eyes a bit. I'd be happier with fresh names.

Well, renau1g is on the character sheet, so we're good there.

I'll add the god names to my list of things to ponder.

 

[Graf]

Maybe I spoke too quickly and we -should- make the 4th island fey oriented. If it were dedicated to Proserphones then you could have fey (cause her portfolio includes fey) and the rift could be linked to the Shadowfell (her husband being Hadeys).

Maybe even a legend about how he took her there once to relax and they had a fight? He tore a big hole in the ground to go home and she wept and enchanted the isle to touch the faerie?

That leaves Daunton a bit more undefined, but...

 

[Graf]

If you dislike the names.... you could even go and write new names for them on the Old Gods of Alleria.

So the Imperium iteration of the gods can keep the names that Ata slaved over (and that I'm personally fond of even if I can't spell any of them) while you can take the same core of deities and go nuts making them over in a more traditionally DnDish style.

Everyone's happy I think.

 

[Graf]

Added a bit about Allaria (actually I'd written it yesterday but it got deleted, thank god the wiki saves everything) and the Far Lands.

 

[garyh]

If you dislike the names.... you could even go and write new names for them on the Old Gods of Alleria.

So the Imperium iteration of the gods can keep the names that Ata slaved over (and that I'm personally fond of even if I can't spell any of them) while you can take the same core of deities and go nuts making them over in a more traditionally DnDish style.

Everyone's happy I think.

That works, too. That's one of the great (and real-world reflecting) things about the "one pantheon, many names" ideas.

EDITed to add:

Added a bit about Allaria (actually I'd written it yesterday but it got deleted, thank god the wiki saves everything) and the Far Lands.

I really like the way you've got a hobgoblin empire AND humanoid pirates. It gives folks playing MM races more options - an honorable warrior from the Empire of Hzaka, a scurvy pirate from Bacarte, or a truly savage humanoid from elsewhere. Good idea, and keeps MM PC's from HAVING to be pirates.

The Empire of Jade looks to be the designated default for tiefling and dragonborn PC's. I like having a default place each PHB race fits in the world. If someone wants to do something different, there's always room for exceptions, but it otherwise it's nice to have some kind of vague baseline.

 

[Graf]

The empire is actually supposed to be really evil.

Halford seemed really really keen on having some sort of Evil empire dominated by hobgoblins. Personally I wouldn't have written it that way, but I figured that it doesn't kill anyone to have a boilerplate "evil empire of humanoids" lying around.

I was thinking about making them psuedo communists actually (with hints that it's really a front for something very very bad); pushing the idea that you need to give up your mind and soul to the empire.

I actually had the idea that the hobgoblin pirates are "renegades from the empire of Hzaka" a more moderate political group that seized control of the navy and ran away. They've been "blending in" on Bacarte and creating what they hope will be a new nation.

Of course, their old comerades haven't forgotten them...

That's why they're so keen to shore of resistance on the mainland....

 

[garyh]

Your Empire / Bacarte ideas work well for me. The "all for the Empire" idea makes sense for hierarchical hobgoblins, too.

 

[garyh]

I've posted my own take on a map of the Transitive Isles, using GIMP and Goblin King's hex map technique. The five main islands are labeled, and I tossed a few small ones in as well. The scale is 1 hex = 50 miles. One setting element I wasn't sure on was where the Empire of Hzaka fits. Maybe on Daunton's island, on the opposite side?

I was trying to attached the file to this post, but it keep uploading "fuzzy," so it's hosted on my personal site.

 

[Graf]

The Empire of Hzaka is on Allaria. Which is located roughly 2~3 weeks away by difficult sea journey.

Though I've deliberately not defined it; I saw it as a massive warmarchine. If it were near Daunton (i.e. not blocked by a significant expanse of the Transitive Seas) it would already have conquered the city.

The problem to my mind, for Hzaka, isn't that they don't have the resources to can't invade and control the whole world, it's just that the logistics of getting troops to the right places has so far not been solved.