Proposed fix for spellcaster multiclassing

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wulf, your and my suggestions are pretty similar. But where I tried to tone down spellcaster power by reducing spells available, you've greatly increased it for sorcerers and wizards.

I'm not sure I've really increased it for wizards since they had access to every spell they could purchase-- which is effectively every spell they want beyond L3 or so.

But I'll concede the point on sorcerers-- and bards-- AND effectively every multiclass spellcaster who'll get access to all the known spells on every class he takes. As I said upthread, I went the exact complete opposite end of the spectrum than you did.

No doubt it makes spellcasters more versatile. Versatility is power of a fashion, of course.

It's especially powerful ("Broken!" says BryonD) in the case of a Clr1/Wiz19 who picks up all the divine spells (all the way to Miracle and True Resurrection) as a cleric as well as all the Wizard spells (all the way to Wish). (Or vice versa for the Clr19/Wiz1).

It's very different and so therefore very scary.

Ultimately there are not such vast differences between the arcane and divine spell lists that mixing them breaks the system (though it may very well break the sacred cow "feel" of the game for you). In the end the spell list is already very nearly universal, and you have a 20th level character who can cast Wish OR Miracle OR True Resurrection, which taken by itself isn't really so scary after all.

Compared to the status quo? Well, all he's given up are the 20th level Wizard perks (one bonus Feat and one bonus 5th level Ready spell).

This makes him much more useful as a healer but not more useful than a true cleric-- he lacks the bonus divine spells and spontaneous casting ability of the true cleric. So he'll have to actually Ready his healing spells.

Conversely the Clr19/Wiz1 can have a grand time blasting his foes apart with arcane magic, and he'll more than pull his weight as a healer-- but he cannot Ready arcane spells in his bonus domain slots, and he'll lack the bonus feats and bonus readied spells of the true wizard.

All of that now presented for discussion, I will admit I would be much happier if this system included a Universal spell list that is divided into (at most) Divine and Arcane spells.

You certainly could do exactly that by throwing out the 3.5 spell list and using a more unified spell list such as that found in the AE spell treasury.

This is a variation on what I mentioned in the other thread-- that the key was to make class abilities for the spellcasters that were attractive and yet on par with the other class features (such as the Bbn features).

Successful? I guess that depends on how you feel about the Rog2/Ftr4/Bbn14. Those classes synergize pretty well, too.

Also, if you want to cast a spell twice in a day, do you have to prepare it twice, or can you prepare it once and just spend a spell slot each time you want to cast it?

The Ready spell mechanic appears in AU/AE. I recommend checking it out.

Basically you start the day by Readying every spell you want to have access to-- think of it as a miniature "spells known" list. You can then cast any spell you have Readied using any available spell slots. You don't need to Ready the same spell twice.

The example section in orange in the middle explains this.

I think 3/4 spellcasting progression is aesthetically better than 2/3, but for balance sake, and to minimize fiddling, I think your idea works.

I started with 3/4 on bards as well. It would work just fine if you want to add 7th and 8th level spells to the bard spell list.

My version is easier in gameplay, I feel. I've never liked having to write down prepared spells, and I prefer spontaneous casting.

Give the Ready spells mechanic a fair shake. It's an excellent mix between "prepared" and "spontaneous" casting. I'd certainly take versatility at the expense of a bit of simplicity.

At any rate I didn't post to compete with your version, only to share the path I'd gone down. We may yet converge.

Sadrik, I don't see how either my or Wulf's version are 'incompatible' with existing 3.5 products. When it comes to NPCs, I'm pretty sure even the Paizo folks have admitted the best thing to do is to run them as they're written, and not try to convert them to the new ruleset; you just run them as they were previously written and don't sweat the small stuff.

Exactly. I have no compunctions whatsoever about changing the mechanics behind the PCs and leaving the NPCs behind.

Anyway, back to this one. We both like the unified spells per day based on caster level, and stacking caster level based on class. We disagree on how people should get access to spells. Which solution do you think is better?

I'm still not sure. Jury's out. Presented here for discussion. I will say I am generally comfortable giving more power to the PCs/players and I'll worry about challenging them from my side of the screen.

Which would be better accepted by the Pathfinder community, and which is better for game balance and gameplay?

I think it's impossible to please all Pathfinder fans. I especially doubt that I am the man for the job. My wants and needs have already diverged too far from Pathfinder-- I don't particularly want the changes that they made and the changes that I need, they haven't touched yet.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well in that case, since I might end up writing for Pathfinder products in the future, I prefer my version ( :-D ), where the ratio of spells you know depends on the ratio of your different spellcasting classes.

It's late, but I'll try to work something up later this week.

I'm sure you've mentioned it elsewhere, but what are the particular changes you need that they haven't touched yet? Monster design?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Multiclass spellcasters for starters.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well in that case, since I might end up writing for Pathfinder products in the future, I prefer my version ( :-D ), where the ratio of spells you know depends on the ratio of your different spellcasting classes.

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, because this:

Wiz 1/Ftr 19 has caster level 10, and knows 2 spells of up to 5th level.

is almost as bad as the status quo. Why bother stacking caster level and spell slots if the CL10 Ftr/Wiz only knows two spells? He's throwing away most of his spell slots.

(Sorry if that sounds blunt!)

 

[RangerWickett]

He could get magic missile and fireball, and take a metamagic feat or two, and have a ton of mook-killing power. Or he might go for, say, minor image and teleport. Either is better than the current version and, I feel, better than your system which would let a 19th level fighter pick up dozens of spells by investing just one level in wizard.

Maybe make spells known a function of your total caster level, and have a universal spell list. If your caster level goes up due to a nonspellcasting class's level, you have to pick spells from the universal list.

What if your caster level increases when you haven't yet taken any spellcasting classes yet, though? Hm. Maybe you don't select any spells, and whenever you take a spellcasting class, you have to fill in all the backlog with spells from your current class. Iffy.

 

[Chacal]

I really like the Readied spells mechanism from AU/AE, so I'm more inclined to like Wulf's proposal.
However, while I'll refrain myself from screaming "Broken !", I would probably add one of the following limitations

• a cap on the highest level of spell known, something like class level x2.
• Every full spellcasting class after the first gives a -1 to BMB

A side effect to the Readied spell mechanisms is that it blurs the differences between sorcerers and wizards casting styles (and replaces them advantageously).
Looking at their progression tables, I wondered if one class wouldn't be enough to represent both archetypes. Let's call him the Magic User
The Magic User chooses between two mutually exclusive (or not ?) feats:
The first one allows the Magic user to convert up to one spell slot of every level into two readied spells of the same level.
The second one allows the Magic User to convert up to one readied spell of every level into two spell slots of the same level.

Both feats can only be used upon readying spells.

Additionally, I would give a feat every 5 levels. I would add several feat chains or feat trees for representing school specializations or sorcerous bloodlines.


Chacal

 

[Jeff Wilder]

While I think what you guys are working on is pretty cool from a design perspective, there's no way it makes it into Pathfinder (if you're considering that as a goal). It's simply too dissimilar to 3.5. Even I, as big an amateur design wonk as I am, got a little "eyes glazed over" thing as I was reading through this. There's just no way Pathfinder goes in a direction that will freak out so many players.

Not that that should stop you.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

He could get magic missile and fireball, and take a metamagic feat or two, and have a ton of mook-killing power. Or he might go for, say, minor image and teleport.

A 10th level caster (Wizard, in your version) has a spell slot load of 4/4/4/3/3/2.

Just giving the Fighter two spells known throws away most of his slots. It invalidates the entire point behind the fix.

Either is better than the current version and, I feel, better than your system which would let a 19th level fighter pick up dozens of spells by investing just one level in wizard.

What is the difference between a Fighter who takes a level of Wizard and gains access to dozens of spells, and a Wizard who takes a level of Fighter and is suddenly proficient with all martial weapons, all armors, and tower shields? Would you change that?

Maybe make spells known a function of your total caster level, and have a universal spell list. If your caster level goes up due to a nonspellcasting class's level, you have to pick spells from the universal list.

I'm more inclined to define a Universal list that everyone gets complete and instant access to as soon as they pick up 1 spellcasting level, and then carve out more restricted class-based lists that you have to choose from when you level up.

At the end of the day the Clr10/Wiz10 deserves access to 9th level spells in both classes. Period. He's a "full" spellcaster with an even split, he deserves every bit of power coming to a 20th level character-- just as the Wiz20, the Clr20, or the synergy enjoyed by a Ftr10/Bbn10 (who gives up nothing other than class features).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

There's no way it makes it into Pathfinder (if you're considering that as a goal). There's just no way Pathfinder goes in a direction that will freak out so many players.

Not that that should stop you.

I know.

It won't.

 

[Chacal]

At the end of the day the Clr10/Wiz10 deserves access to 9th level spells in both classes. Period. He's a "full" spellcaster with an even split, he deserves every bit of power coming to a 20th level character-- just as the Wiz20, the Clr20, or the synergy enjoyed by a Ftr10/Bbn10 (who gives up nothing other than class features).

I believe that, given the existing spell lists, access to high level spells are defining class features for wizards and Cleric. For this reason alone, I feel giving multiclass spellcasters access to 9th level spells in two or more spell lists cheapens the single classed ones.

As you mentioned, it will work much better with a universal spell list. It would also need other defining class features at high levels IMO.


Chacal