Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
I had missed the fact that RangerWickett had made the same suggestion a few posts upthread... 
Proposed fix for spellcaster multiclassing
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Eridanis
Bard 7/Mod (ret) 10/Mgr 3
Sorry that I'm a bit late to this party...
I'm not sure that adding more levels of spells to the bard list is a bad or good idea, but since bards are fairly underpowered, I think it would be worth playtesting.
Looking at the SRD, there are a few obvious candidates to extrapolate:
Possible 7th Level Bard Spells
Antipathy
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Hold Person, Mass
Mord's Magnificent Mansion (more because it seems in flavor than anything else)
Screen
Scintillating Pattern
Shadow Conjuration, Greater
Summon Monster VII
Sympathy
Possible 8th Level Bard Spells
Charm Monster, Mass
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Invisibility, Mass
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Summon Monster VIII
Time Stop (again, for flavor reasons)
None of these, except maybe for Time Stop, scream bah-roken to me for a high-level bard to have available.
While I can appreciate what this thread is trying to accomplish, I think I agree with Dannyalcatraz in that I see multiclassing and the loss of casters' abilities as a feature they're willingly giving up to gain the abilities of some other class. Yeah, it sucks when your wizard 5/ fighter 15 tries to cast a spell on a monster of appropriate CR, but I think that multiclassing represents flexibility, not power.
Something else I find amusing is the fact that so many people on the forums here complain that many spellcasters are overpowered at high levels compared to fighter types and yet here we are trying to make multiclass spellcasters more powerful. Amusing.
Something else I find amusing is the fact that so many people on the forums here complain that many spellcasters are overpowered at high levels compared to fighter types and yet here we are trying to make multiclass spellcasters more powerful. Amusing.
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
I never complained about high level casters.
Also, the issue for me and others, is that a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 is, quite simply, unplayable, while a Fighter 10/Rogue 10 is an extremely viable choice.
I don't think a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 is unplayable at all. It just requires a different approach than a purely divine/arcane spellcaster of equal level on both the part of the player and the DM. If your DM is truly collaborating with you and your party, a cleric/wizard should still be an effective party member. It's really just a matter of finding a role/niche in the party dynamic.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Then why would you be in this thread-- other than to threadcrap?
Threadcrap? I'm not here to shoot down the idea per se, I'm just trying to get a handle on why people think multiclass spellcasters suck so bad. I know they're less effective against SR and all that, since they have a lower caster level, but I still think they can be done effectively. Admittedly, it does require some effort on the part of player and DM to make it work, but I find that's half the fun. Sorry if it seemed like I was critiquing the thread in a harsh way.
Personally, if I'm going to multiclass a spellcasting class I focus more on buff up spells or spells where only the duration matters due to caster level. While a lower CL may mean a shorter duration, the spells aren't really any less effective. When one tries to do direct damage type spells while multiclassing it can lead to significant weakness relative to level.
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Can I join? Anyway, my issue with spellcasters under 3e was/is that spell strength is based too much on the modifiers instead of the caster (DC = 10 + spell level + appropriate modifiers + misc modifiers). If you wanted to play a subtle spellcastrer (one who defeats foes through spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm & similar, as opposed to blowing them away) you are screwed. Will the Pathfinder system offer spellcasting alternatives at a future date? The Heighten Spell feat helps some, but for those classes that don't have the spell slots that a Sorcerer has it was more of a hinderance then a help (imho).
Here's some of the stuff I toyed with:
DC = 10 + spell level + half caster level, rounded down + Appropriate modifier + misc modifiers. The problem here was that it was better at lower levels but once spellcasters went mid (6+ to be exact) & higher it went too much in their favor.
DC = 10 + half caster level, rounded down + appropriate modifer + misc modifiers. Was better in keeping up with the saves; but all the spells, regardless of their level, wound up having the same saving throws. It also wound up making quite a few metamagic feats worthless.
Anyone who can come up with a simple way of having Spell Strength be based more on the Spellcaster while still keeping the core 3e (or in this case, Pathfinder) mechanic I'm all ears.
Here's some of the stuff I toyed with:
DC = 10 + spell level + half caster level, rounded down + Appropriate modifier + misc modifiers. The problem here was that it was better at lower levels but once spellcasters went mid (6+ to be exact) & higher it went too much in their favor.
DC = 10 + half caster level, rounded down + appropriate modifer + misc modifiers. Was better in keeping up with the saves; but all the spells, regardless of their level, wound up having the same saving throws. It also wound up making quite a few metamagic feats worthless.
Anyone who can come up with a simple way of having Spell Strength be based more on the Spellcaster while still keeping the core 3e (or in this case, Pathfinder) mechanic I'm all ears.
NerfedWizard
First Post
Has this been suggested?
The obvious solution to multiclassed casters in d20 systems seems to me to be to make a nice 20 x 20 table with your specific class level down the left hand side and your total effective character level across the top. The table entries show a "compromise" level usually somewhere between your class level and effective character level. This compromise level applies for class features of a non-stacking variety (including spells known, spells memorised per day, etc.), but not (obviously) for base attack bonuses, saving throws, hit points etc.
Constructing the table would be relatively simple (but involve some arithmetic). The formula I suggest would be that your compromise level equals the square root of the product of your specific class level and effective character level, rounding down. In other words:-
CompLvl = (ClassLevel x ECL)^0.5
Here are some illustrative examples for a 10th level character:-
Fighter 1, Wizard 9 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 9
(unchanged from original d20 system)
Fighter 2, Wizard 8 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 8
(unchanged from original d20 system)
Fighter 3, Wizard 7 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 8
(you cast spells just like an 8th level wizard, including number memorised; your fireballs are 8HD, etc.)
Fighter 4, Wizard 6 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 7
Fighter 5, Wizard 5 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 7
Fighter 6, Wizard 4 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 6
Fighter 7, Wizard 3 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 5
Fighter 8, Wizard 2 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 4
Fighter 9, Wizard 1 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 3
Funky Weird Race (+4 ECL), Wizard 6, compromise level [edit] 7 [/edit]
(you cast spells like a [edit] 7th [/edit] level wizard)
Funky Weird Race (+2 ECL), Fighter 5, Wizard 3, compromise level 5
(you cast spells like a 5th level wizard)
The solution is mathematically elegant, but by building a 20x20 table, it can be easy to implement.
However all cleric and druid spells per level badly need to be halved, and spontaneous cleric casting got rid of completely.
The table would look a bit like this, but twice as broad and deep
____Effective Character Level__
_________1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10__
Class
Level
1________1__1__1__2__2__2__2__2__3__3__
2________1__2__2__2__3__3__3__4__4__4__
3________1__2__3__3__3__4__4__4__5__5__
4________2__2__3__4__4__4__5__5__6__6__
5________2__3__3__4__5__5__5__6__6__7__
6________2__3__4__4__5__6__6__6__7__7__
7________2__3__4__5__5__6__7__7__7__8__
8________2__4__4__5__6__6__7__8__8__8__
9________3__4__5__6__6__7__7__8__9__9__
10_______3__4__5__6__7__7__8__8__9__10_
Note that this table also means that if you belong to a weak
race with a negative ECL modifier, your spellcasting is actually
lower than your class level. For instance, if I played a slime
goblin (-4 Str, -4 Con, -4 Cha, -4 Int, -4 Wis, +2 Dex, dark
vision, bad body odour offends all within 5', -3 ECL)
and began life as a 4th level wizard (ECL 4-3 = 1, equivalent
to a 1st level character), I would get saving throw modifiers,
BAB etc. as a 4th level wizard, but cast spells as a 2nd level
wizard. I would have all the arrogance of a 4th level wizard
among slime-goblin kind, and be just as important as a 4th
level slime-goblin fighter, but I would have rubbish spellcasting
like a 2nd level human wizard.
Kind of neat, isn't it?
The obvious solution to multiclassed casters in d20 systems seems to me to be to make a nice 20 x 20 table with your specific class level down the left hand side and your total effective character level across the top. The table entries show a "compromise" level usually somewhere between your class level and effective character level. This compromise level applies for class features of a non-stacking variety (including spells known, spells memorised per day, etc.), but not (obviously) for base attack bonuses, saving throws, hit points etc.
Constructing the table would be relatively simple (but involve some arithmetic). The formula I suggest would be that your compromise level equals the square root of the product of your specific class level and effective character level, rounding down. In other words:-
CompLvl = (ClassLevel x ECL)^0.5
Here are some illustrative examples for a 10th level character:-
Fighter 1, Wizard 9 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 9
(unchanged from original d20 system)
Fighter 2, Wizard 8 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 8
(unchanged from original d20 system)
Fighter 3, Wizard 7 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 8
(you cast spells just like an 8th level wizard, including number memorised; your fireballs are 8HD, etc.)
Fighter 4, Wizard 6 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 7
Fighter 5, Wizard 5 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 7
Fighter 6, Wizard 4 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 6
Fighter 7, Wizard 3 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 5
Fighter 8, Wizard 2 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 4
Fighter 9, Wizard 1 (human), compromise level for spellcasting of 3
Funky Weird Race (+4 ECL), Wizard 6, compromise level [edit] 7 [/edit]
(you cast spells like a [edit] 7th [/edit] level wizard)
Funky Weird Race (+2 ECL), Fighter 5, Wizard 3, compromise level 5
(you cast spells like a 5th level wizard)
The solution is mathematically elegant, but by building a 20x20 table, it can be easy to implement.
However all cleric and druid spells per level badly need to be halved, and spontaneous cleric casting got rid of completely.
The table would look a bit like this, but twice as broad and deep
____Effective Character Level__
_________1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10__
Class
Level
1________1__1__1__2__2__2__2__2__3__3__
2________1__2__2__2__3__3__3__4__4__4__
3________1__2__3__3__3__4__4__4__5__5__
4________2__2__3__4__4__4__5__5__6__6__
5________2__3__3__4__5__5__5__6__6__7__
6________2__3__4__4__5__6__6__6__7__7__
7________2__3__4__5__5__6__7__7__7__8__
8________2__4__4__5__6__6__7__8__8__8__
9________3__4__5__6__6__7__7__8__9__9__
10_______3__4__5__6__7__7__8__8__9__10_
Note that this table also means that if you belong to a weak
race with a negative ECL modifier, your spellcasting is actually
lower than your class level. For instance, if I played a slime
goblin (-4 Str, -4 Con, -4 Cha, -4 Int, -4 Wis, +2 Dex, dark
vision, bad body odour offends all within 5', -3 ECL)
and began life as a 4th level wizard (ECL 4-3 = 1, equivalent
to a 1st level character), I would get saving throw modifiers,
BAB etc. as a 4th level wizard, but cast spells as a 2nd level
wizard. I would have all the arrogance of a 4th level wizard
among slime-goblin kind, and be just as important as a 4th
level slime-goblin fighter, but I would have rubbish spellcasting
like a 2nd level human wizard.
Kind of neat, isn't it?
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NerfedWizard
First Post
And this system would mean for example, you could be
a "learned bard" character statted as a 2nd level wizard,
1st level sorcerer, 3rd level druid, 4th level bard, and
cast spells as:- 4th level wizard, 3rd level sorcerer,
5th level druid AND 6th level bard... but bearing in
mind that this character has to be useful on 10th level
dungeons, seems fair enough to me
a "learned bard" character statted as a 2nd level wizard,
1st level sorcerer, 3rd level druid, 4th level bard, and
cast spells as:- 4th level wizard, 3rd level sorcerer,
5th level druid AND 6th level bard... but bearing in
mind that this character has to be useful on 10th level
dungeons, seems fair enough to me
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