Proposed Solutions to "problem" Spells
- Thread starter Cloudgatherer
- Start date
I like the idea of a material component for Haste. It preserves the mechanic from earlier systems in which Haste was very effective but potentially very costly. Another option would be to include a mild XP cost, either on the caster or on the one Hasted, although I have no desire to figure out the mechanics for the latter.
Spatzimaus
First Post
I'll just comment on Haste and Polymorph Self.
HASTE:
Just moving it to level 4 works fine. Compare to similar spells:
Rapid Strikes (Wiz 2): one extra attack per turn
Schism (Psi 3): one extra spell cast per turn
Haste (Wiz ): one extra action per turn that can be used for an attack or spell, AND a +4 haste AC bonus.
Mass Haste (Wiz 6): group Haste.
With that progression, having it at level 4 seems right, although it's still a bit strong thanks to the AC boost. I like the material component idea there, but nothing excessive.
POLYMORPH SELF:
First of all, the most recent version of the spell (which I believe is in Tome and Blood or the PsiHB errata), you're already limited to one form per casting and they explicitly disallow constructs, outsiders, undead, etc. It's actually much more clear than the original wording. So, it's only a "problem spell" in the "confusing" sense if you don't use the new version.
Now, it's still overpowered IMHO, and so is Polymorph Other, simply due to the ability to change to a "monster" form and gain massive natural armor, reach, etc.
A house rule we came up with was to have Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other require a check very similar to Teleport (use the same table). So, if you're not very familiar with the form in question you're more likely to miss and turn into something other than what you intended. The worse the category, the further you were off; if you were trying to use it offensively, reverse the difference. A roll of "Mishap" gets you a really awful form (usually an ooze or abomination) and you can't just dispel the form at will.
Then, at level 6, add two new spells, Polymorph Self Without Error and Polymorph Other Without Error, that act just like the old versions.
Example: I'm turning Bob into a squirrel with Polymorph Other. If I screw it up, he might become a Dire Squirrel, Fiendish Dire Squirrel, etc. instead.
I'm turning myself into a Stone Giant with Polymorph Self. A small screwup turns me into a Hill Giant, a large screwup into an Ogre.
HASTE:
Just moving it to level 4 works fine. Compare to similar spells:
Rapid Strikes (Wiz 2): one extra attack per turn
Schism (Psi 3): one extra spell cast per turn
Haste (Wiz ): one extra action per turn that can be used for an attack or spell, AND a +4 haste AC bonus.
Mass Haste (Wiz 6): group Haste.
With that progression, having it at level 4 seems right, although it's still a bit strong thanks to the AC boost. I like the material component idea there, but nothing excessive.
POLYMORPH SELF:
First of all, the most recent version of the spell (which I believe is in Tome and Blood or the PsiHB errata), you're already limited to one form per casting and they explicitly disallow constructs, outsiders, undead, etc. It's actually much more clear than the original wording. So, it's only a "problem spell" in the "confusing" sense if you don't use the new version.
Now, it's still overpowered IMHO, and so is Polymorph Other, simply due to the ability to change to a "monster" form and gain massive natural armor, reach, etc.
A house rule we came up with was to have Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other require a check very similar to Teleport (use the same table). So, if you're not very familiar with the form in question you're more likely to miss and turn into something other than what you intended. The worse the category, the further you were off; if you were trying to use it offensively, reverse the difference. A roll of "Mishap" gets you a really awful form (usually an ooze or abomination) and you can't just dispel the form at will.
Then, at level 6, add two new spells, Polymorph Self Without Error and Polymorph Other Without Error, that act just like the old versions.
Example: I'm turning Bob into a squirrel with Polymorph Other. If I screw it up, he might become a Dire Squirrel, Fiendish Dire Squirrel, etc. instead.
I'm turning myself into a Stone Giant with Polymorph Self. A small screwup turns me into a Hill Giant, a large screwup into an Ogre.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Thanks for all the good info everyone.
I've added the additional house rules to haste, but I haven't reposted it above yet.
Here's my current "list" of spells to do write ups for:
Animate Objects
Divine Power
Divine Favor
Freedom of Movement
Forcecage – (again)
Greater Magic Weapon
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction
Tenser’s Transformation
Wall of Force
I'll refer to the thread when I do the write up and include the house rule suggestions.
Later!
I've added the additional house rules to haste, but I haven't reposted it above yet.
Here's my current "list" of spells to do write ups for:
Animate Objects
Divine Power
Divine Favor
Freedom of Movement
Forcecage – (again)
Greater Magic Weapon
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction
Tenser’s Transformation
Wall of Force
I'll refer to the thread when I do the write up and include the house rule suggestions.
Later!
Cloudgatherer
First Post
I don't have a copy of tome and blood. I stayed away from the splat books after reading about Sword and Fist and Defenders of the Faith.
My write up on the spell(s) is brief for that reason. I say you can use a newer "Version" of the spell, or create your own set of rules (which you did). I'm not trying to say "everyone should do it like this", I'm only saying "you could do it like this or this or this or..." while trying to point out possible problems.
My write up on the spell(s) is brief for that reason. I say you can use a newer "Version" of the spell, or create your own set of rules (which you did). I'm not trying to say "everyone should do it like this", I'm only saying "you could do it like this or this or this or..." while trying to point out possible problems.
Spatzimaus
First Post
I don't have any of the splatbooks either, I was just saying that in the unique case of Polymorph Self, WotC rewrote the entire core spell. You can find the errata in various places, but the only "in print" place the newest version appears is Tome and Blood.
So, I don't think it's fair to treat the new version like another house rule. It's the official version of the spell; if you want to stick with the original PHB version I'd say THAT is more of a house rule, since any future printings of the book will use the new version.
So, I don't think it's fair to treat the new version like another house rule. It's the official version of the spell; if you want to stick with the original PHB version I'd say THAT is more of a house rule, since any future printings of the book will use the new version.
Taren Seeker
First Post
IMO, there's nothing wrong with GMW. There are a LOT of great 3rd level spells to choose from (or 4th for clerics), and a mage who preps this spell for the whole party will be very short of some staple spells.
As for Tenser's, the Bull's Strength potion as a material component helps to limit this one somewhat, although I'd be tempted to have it not stack with Divine Power. Tenser's only really gets sick when you can use a spell storing item to lay it on a fighter, or a div powered mage or cleric. Otherwise, I've seen mages who cast this who get better in combat, but they don't become monsters.
As for Tenser's, the Bull's Strength potion as a material component helps to limit this one somewhat, although I'd be tempted to have it not stack with Divine Power. Tenser's only really gets sick when you can use a spell storing item to lay it on a fighter, or a div powered mage or cleric. Otherwise, I've seen mages who cast this who get better in combat, but they don't become monsters.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
The general principle is bring this in line with the summon spells in power. I could live with smaller creatures but have them not subject to the summoning restrictions. Just take them all down a size category.
My goal was just to make it possible within the rules to have all the animated object sizes available. As written they top out in the large range which is not much value for a 6th spell at 20th level.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
hong said:
Hey, we have a skill system in 3E now, let's use it.Instead of auto-success, I would let Knock let the spellcaster open locks with a successful Spellcraft check, at the regular Open Lock/Disable Device DC.
So what's the open locks DC of Arcane Lock?
Really the only reason Knock should be there is to counter Arcane Lock. Actual skill should take care of the rest. Letting Knock open mundane locks in the easier category is just a bonus for me.
Plus I don't like giving it a bonus to pick locks for the same reason people don't like the +30 skill items. Magic would further overpower real skill.
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