Protecting Troops from Fireball

The effect of a single low-mid level wizard with his handful of good AoE spells raining death from 400 feet away is not fundamentally different from 50 skilled archers raining death from 400 feet away. The wizard will be more effective for a short battle. The archers for a long one.
 

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Well, which is better depends largely on level.

Fifty level-1 archers (nominally encounter level 11...) aren't going to do too terribly well against one perpared level-10 Wizard.

Especially if the Flying (Greater) Invisible wizard comes along and Silently Charms or Dominates the commander ... or summons a few things in the middle of the formation ... or both ....

For a Wiz/11, a Symobl of Persuaison can do wonders....

Sorcerors designed for it are worse, though, for the most part, due to their sheer endurance.
 

Well, yes, a well-prepared Wizard is more than a match for the CR equivalent of grunts.

My point is more addressing the argument that magic has some uniquely disruptive effect on the battlefield. Mass longbow fire was pretty disruptive to warfare. I just do not see that 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spells from a few spellcasters would be all that different over the course of a large battle.

As for higher level spells, the logic of the D&D mechanics pretty much mandate that officers be significantly better than level 1. Frankly, I do not think it makes much sense to have so many level 1 grunts. Veterans could easily have earned the xp over the course of a couple campaigns to be 2nd or 3rd level, if NPCs were to use rules for xps in any way resembling that of the PCs.

As I see it, the challenge of the exercise is to see if one can adequately alleviate the Fireballs and similar power magic with mundane tactics and cheap/low-level magic.

A savvy spellcaster would be worth more than their weight in CR equivalent grunts. But there is no particular logic of massed warfare that says there be any fairness in measures like level-equivalent or CR equivalent.
 
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I've seen answers close to this, but let me answer from a "real world" perspective and then put it into game terms.

First, magic wasn't a reality in Medieval combat so having formations of infantry moving as units is going to have to go. Ranks of men against archers, its effective. If a group of men were suddenly having to deal with exploding Fireballs, the tactics would change.

Real world example #1 - during the close of the Napoleonic era (US Civil War late 1800s) artillery become much more effective than it had been in the past 200 years. Aiming, damage and scatter were ebgining to take their toll on unit numbers. The next major war to use artillery versus an infantry style combat (The Spanish-American War) showed a great many changes in infantry tactics, long lines no longer marched in step to their doom, they spread out in long lines, but in single ranks and charged across open ground in loosely formed groups rather than tightly controlled rank and file.

That being said, if wizards were flinging Fireballs at my troops on a regular basis in combat, I would train my troops to move in a more "fluid" style.

Real World ex #2 - between WWI and WWII it was noted that individual men moving as such, but fighting in concert led to smaller numbers of casualties.

I would train my troops to be more mobile - ie Feat them to get out of the way and make them use move and cover tactics

Real World ex #3 - After WWII it was discovered that if the enemy has a weapon and you can counter that threat, you're a lot better for it and may reduce casualties even more.

My troops would have a cleric for healing (medic) along for the ride and at least one sniper (Archer) to take out the magic threat, this is warfare so poisoned arrows are fair game. An infantry heavy weapons group, (light ballista) to lay down covering fire (like the Romans did in the 400BC - fall of Empire) and possibly keep the wizard at bay is a must.

As for magic items or other such nonsense - troops are expendable they know it and you known it! They get their room and board in exhange for the chance to die for their country! The cost to prevent flame damage is just too great. As an example even the burning pitch dumped on them from above was not a reason to create better PERSONAL equipment - they used seige shields and seige houses to deflect the vile stuff. Much more cost effective and reduced the amount of casualties. If you wanted to a large rolling house covered in wet hides would keep the flame damage from happening, but the explosion would proabaly rip the poor thing apart, so individual tactics is still the most sound idea.

The difference between fiction and fact is that the great generals of the ages adapted their tactics to their enemy. The poor generals wrote a lot of letters to grieving mothers and widows or were beheaded for incompetance. Medieval combat worked with the technology on hand, had magic truly existed, more modern combat tactics would have arisen out of neccessity.
 

Ridley's Cohort said:
The effect of a single low-mid level wizard with his handful of good AoE spells raining death from 400 feet away is not fundamentally different from 50 skilled archers raining death from 400 feet away. The wizard will be more effective for a short battle. The archers for a long one.

Consider: War1: hp 4; AC 16; Atk ranged +1. (PHB 2000 Survival Kit p. 9, or pick any warrior from MM). 50 such longbowmen at 400 ft --> 4 range increments --> -8 to hit --> need natural 20 to hit. Assume 1d8 damage kills target half the time. In one round 50 shots / 20 to hit / 2 for kills = 1 man killed.

In one round, fireball encompasses and kills about 40 or 50 men.

There's a lot of interesting speculation in this thread, but the hard fact is that the numbers/ available defensive spells/ level of troops specified in PHB-DMG-MM don't bear up to scrutiny.
 

dcollins said:
Consider: War1: hp 4; AC 16; Atk ranged +1. (PHB 2000 Survival Kit p. 9, or pick any warrior from MM). 50 such longbowmen at 400 ft --> 4 range increments --> -8 to hit --> need natural 20 to hit. Assume 1d8 damage kills target half the time. In one round 50 shots / 20 to hit / 2 for kills = 1 man killed.

In one round, fireball encompasses and kills about 40 or 50 men.

A skilled archer would be Fighter1 or Fighter2, have Rapid Shot, and 12+ Str with strengthbow. That would be the appropriate historical comparison to an English longbowman.

For the sake of argument I will accept the rate of 1 kill per volley.

50 such archers will get 2 kills per round --> 20 kills per minute. In 10 minutes that is 200 men killed, at which point the archers are probably tired and out of arrows.

Under D&D rules there is no reason to bunch people up in nice tight clumps unless engaged in melee. Regardless, a Fireball should only catch 10-12 men if the army uses the most obvious anti-Fireball tactics. You might catch more right at the line of battle, but that will mean killing friendlies as well so that is going to be close to a wash. How many Fireballs you got? Call it 6. 6 x ~11 is 66 men killed. Throw in a few low level spells as well an we are in the ballpark of 70-80 killed.

Archers look better in a long battle. Wizard is better in a short one.
 


Moon-Lancer said:
have an archer ready an action to fire at the incomeing fire bead. If the archer hits the bead it stops the fireball.

That would be one heck of a high AC. The bead is moving at least at 66 ft./s (or 45 mph)...

I think only epic characters would be able to pull off something like that...

Andargor
 


Ridley's Cohort said:
A skilled archer would be Fighter1 or Fighter2, have Rapid Shot, and 12+ Str with strengthbow. That would be the appropriate historical comparison to an English longbowman... Under D&D rules there is no reason to bunch people up in nice tight clumps unless engaged in melee... How many Fireballs you got? Call it 6. 6 x ~11 is 66 men killed. Throw in a few low level spells as well an we are in the ballpark of 70-80 killed.

Well, maybe you're answering a different question than I started this thread for. Again, the assumption for the original post for this thread was:
- By core rules, "Most soldiers are 1st-level warriors" (although even Ftr2 need natural 20 to hit AC 16 at 400 feet).
- Presumption is standard medieval troop formations, as shown in D&D illustrations.
- By core rules, standard Wiz11 has wand of fireballs with 50 charges. (Over 1 minute, 10 fireballs --> 400-500 soldiers killed).

Re: Striking bead with arrow, it's not a "body or solid barrier".
 

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