Protection from Evil question

Irda Ranger

First Post
Maybe this is a "duh" question, but I was thinking about Protection from X spells. There is no 1st level spell that grants total immunity from a whole category of spells (such as Evocations), and you don't find anything like that at low levels.

However, doesn't Protection from X grant a total immunity from the entire school of Charm? As long as the duration of the protection spell beats the duration of the Charm, there's no save, do SR, nothing. Just a get out of free card.

Seeing how cheap a Cloak of Protection from X would be, this seems like a really powerful item.

Obviously Persistant Spell would also be a no-brainer here.

Irda Ranger
 

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Originally posted by Irda Ranger
However, doesn't Protection from X grant a total immunity from the entire school of Charm? As long as the duration of the protection spell beats the duration of the Charm, there's no save, do SR, nothing. Just a get out of free card.

It stops domination spells and possession spells. It can be argued that it doesn't stop Charm spells:
(from SRD)
"Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (as by a magic jar attack) or to exercise mental control over the creature (as by a vampire's supernatural domination ability, which works similar to dominate person). The protection does not prevent a vampire's domination itself, but it prevents the vampire from mentally commanding the protected creature. If the protection from evil effect ends before the domination effect does, the vampire would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment."

So there's still plenty of Enchantment spells that would be unaffected.

Seeing how cheap a Cloak of Protection from X would be, this seems like a really powerful item.

Before dcollins says it, this is exactly why you won't see an item that does this, because it IS overpowered. "Always-on" effects have to be balanced by their effects, not what spell they're based on, because many of the normal balance factors (like duration) no longer apply.

For more information about this exact topic, here's a thread from a week or so ago:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46671
 
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Tries his best 'drcollins voice':

A protection from X cloak is only cheep if the DM allows the guidelines to win over good judgement. Clearly the effects are far in excess of what the item would be priced at with the guidelines. Which is what the charts are: guidelines. They break down very fast when you try to simply apply them directly to spells, particularly when you ignore the duration.

The mentioned cloak should either reproduce the effects of the spell exactly (with regards to having a standard action to activate via command word, having a duration dependent on caster level et cetera), or be priced in accordance with the benefits of the bonuses, not the source.

The DM should price any suggested new item based on his own judgment of it's power using the formulas and existing items as a guide. The formulas are fine for charged spell trigger and spell completion, but wondrous items and rings in particular tend to be troublesome when used to replicate spells without regards to the spell's limitations beyond the spell level (there's a lot more that goes into spell balance, like range, duration et cetera).



Also, I could rant quite a while about persistent spell. It's, IMHO, the most poorly hack-balanced feat in any E3 supplement. Quick case in point (don't mention 3eR haste in response, though. 3e hast is just the best spell I can use to make this point with):

Within the rules, there's nothing to prevent someone from making an alternate form of haste that has personal range. For instance, say I have a 'shadow mage' player who wants to, instead of taking an extra partial action every round, have his shadow detach and act on it's own, but that would otherwise be identical to haste. This is a fairly cool idea, I would just tinker haste a bit, make it personal range and add some minor benefits to compensate for the reduced range and AC boost.

If I allow persistent spell, it's a problem waiting to happen. There's no way researching a version of a spell that's worse [changing any range to a personal / lower fixed range] should make it better, balance wise.

Also, persistent spell has the same failing as magic items. Too many spells are balanced with regards to their durations. Disregarding the original duration completely is a very very very very bad idea for anything short of epic play, IMHO. Persistent would still be a great feat if it only increased the duration by a factor of 10 to 20 (still twice to four times what you get for a 4x extend). The few spells it's actually useful for border on being abusive in almost every case.
 
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Irda Ranger said:
However, doesn't Protection from X grant a total immunity from the entire school of Charm? As long as the duration of the protection spell beats the duration of the Charm, there's no save, do SR, nothing. Just a get out of free card.
It doesn't affect charm at all. It prevents excercise of "mental control", i.e. dominate, but not other mind-affecting effects.

Seeing how cheap a Cloak of Protection from X would be, this seems like a really powerful item.
Consider that the cloak would require a standard action to activate, and the spell's duration would end after one minute (at minimum caster level). Keeping those effects in mind, this would be no more powerful than any other similar item.

Note that cast-at-will items, when not limited by charges or daily use, can easily be unbalancing. Would you let your party have an item that casts cure light wounds at will, with no limits? I wouldn't, nor would I let them have an unlimited cloak of protection from alignment.
 

Irda Ranger said:
Seeing how cheap a Cloak of Protection from X would be, this seems like a really powerful item.

As the first respondent noted, there is no cloak of protection from x in the rules. Any such item would be a house-rule on the part of the DM who allows for it. And as ever, the pricing guidelines for "new items" are just that, guidelines for the DM. As Monte Cook says, if it looks cheap, then the DM didn't price it correctly.

www.superdan.net/dndfaq3.html
 

All good points, thank you.

Yes, I was thinking of this item as an "always on" item, not a use item or charge item. It was the duration I was thinking of.

If anyone's game though, I wanted to hop from the item I mentioned to the spell itself. As from the SRD, which Spatzimaus so helpfully quoted, the spell Protection from Alignment protects from any form of mental control.

The spell description seems to be very specific. The Charm spell takes effect, but grants no benefit (control is not gained) until the Protection spell wears off.

Wouldn't pretty much any charm spell that affected how you think (not just the Dominate spells, but even spells like Charm Person) be a form of mental control? Wouldn't Protection from Alignment protect you from this?

I would think that the ability to convince someone to hold off the charging dragon "for just a moment or too" would seem like mental control to me. Personally, no one could ask me to do something that insane without exerting mental influence over me.

Feedback?
 

Dominate Person : "The character can control the actions of any humanoid that is Medium-size or smaller. The character establishes a telepathic link with the subject’s mind. "

To me, that's where the "Mental Control" aspect comes in.

A Suggestion spell isn't exercising mental control - it's exercising verbal control. There's no direct mind-to-mind remote-piloting going on.

-Hyp.
 

The FAQ clarifies that protection from evil spells protect against all spells from the charm subschool, but do not necessarily protect against compulsions. This isn't how the spell reads to me, but it's a reasonable interpretation, I think, and it's what we use.

As for the cost of the item, check out this thread for a discussion. I think the general consensus was that it'd be a bargain at 15,000-20,000 gp.

It's well-balanced as a first-level spell, I think -- I certainly don't see people casting Protection from Evil very often at all in my campaign, and magic circle against evil is considered a good, but not uber, third-level spell in my group. But if you turn it into an item, be very careful with its price.

Daniel
 

Ok, I did not think to check the FAQ on that one. Limiting the spell to a sub-type limits the power while still being clear as to what it can and cannot do. I like that.

I'll take a look at the thread later, but I have made a note of the price. Thanks.
 

The FAQ clarifies that protection from evil spells protect against all spells from the charm subschool, but do not necessarily protect against compulsions.

Huh? But Domination is a compulsion!

If anything, I'd have thought it should be theo other way around... protect against Compulsions, but not Charms... :-\

-Hyp.
 

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