Proto-Indo-European setting and magic...

[Dogbrain]

Looking for brainstorming.

I want to make my setting more "tightly" proto-indo-european. One thing that is guessed about them is that their view of the world was that there were three sorts of people:

Warriors
Magicians
Workers

In their view, "magician" includes "divine". However, the SRD view of things is far more in line with the occultism of 1400s Europe and later, which had developed a (fuzzy) line between "theurgy" ("miracles") and "thaumaturgy" ("magic"). The SRD puts theurgy into "divine" and thaumaturgy into "arcane". The PIE model had no such distinction. Thus, a need to re-work magic to fit this.

I don't want to use the Adept as a model. I prefer something "druidish" specifically because Druids have the greatest number of taboos associated with them already.

So, brainstorming?

 

[mfaust]

Looking for brainstorming.


You may want to take a look at Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.. it presents a magic system that has no distinction between Arcane and Divine magic. Variations (or not) on the Magister would make a good class to represent a priest/philosopher/astrologer/magi, while the greenbond would fit your animistic/shaman role quite well. AU and core D&D sit pretty well side by side, too (although you won't want to mix the magic systems on one character).

your idea sounds like fun!

mfaust

 

[Dogbrain]

Looking for brainstorming.


You may want to take a look at Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.. it presents a magic system that has no distinction between Arcane and Divine magic.

I've looked. It's very modernistic in its approach, not appropriate.

 

[thullgrim]

maybe a conversion of the way Ars Magica handles magic. or Fantasy Hero...setting the mandatory disadvages different for 'clergy' vs alchemists vs magicians...

 

[Dogbrain]

maybe a conversion of the way Ars Magica handles magic. or Fantasy Hero...setting the mandatory disadvages different for 'clergy' vs alchemists vs magicians...

Ars Magica, extremely modernistic approach. Very much post-Enlightenment structure. And differentiating "clergy" vs. "alchemists" vs. "magicians" is exactly the opposite of what I want to do.

However, this is all helping me trim away approaches that wouldn't fit.

 

[jdfrenzel]

I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for here. A single spellcasting class that takes the functions of both divine and arcane spellcasters? Or retain (more or less) the current core classes and change the magic system in some way to blur or eliminate the line between arcane and divine magic? Or both?

Actually, this question might help. In the SRD, the difference between divine and arcane magics is the source of power - divine magic is granted by some gods, while arcane magic is powered by some mystical energy, force, or some other variety of "mana". In your vision of the PIE model, how does magic work?

--- John

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

You want a system in which divine and arcane are the same - something like Rokugan d20's shugenja? Not exactly like that, I'm sure, but along those lines? If I can be so bold as to guess, I'd say the source he's shooting for is a tad more like druidism. He might be looking at how, in mythology, the gods were the earth and the difference between arcane and divine magic, if any exists, was just in the mind of the caster. I'd think you want to develop a very elementalist caster. Correct?

 

[Stormborn]

First I would go with a spontaneous spellcaster a la the Sorcerer. It makes more sense that those born with power would come first, followed by those who would immitate it.

Second, your real problem is the spell lists. Simply do away with the distinctions between divine and arcane spells. However, you will still likely want to "tune" the casters with thematic spells. Rather than create whole new spell lists, ask a magic-user player to choose a theme for their character, perhaps even based on the various Domains, since those represent a ready made mechanic and have clear options. Each theme should have one or more opposing themes, based on your world's cosmology or character concepts. Air oriented magic users can't cast earth spells for example, healers can't cast necromantic spells, etc. >shamelss plug< Check out Dragon #311 for some feats realted to Sorcerer Bloodlines that might apply >end shameless plug<
If a spell doesn't fit the theme, but isn't opposed to it directly, then make them learn it as a spell one level higher than it is. For example, Delay Posion has nothing to do with an Air Mage, nor does it contain any themes that would be in opposition to it (depending on how you think it works) so let the Air Mage learn in (if she wants to use up spell slots to do so) as a spell 1 level higher than the highest level it appears on any list.

Third, choose taboos appropriate for the character that have nothing to do with spell casting. A fire oriented mage might not be able to put out a fire lest he offend the elements and loose his conection to "the power" for a day. An earth mage might loose his powers if immersed in water, or be forbidden to wear animal skins. Other nonspellcasting abilites might include the selection of skills. Knowledge (arcana) might be meaningless, allow the to substitute it or 2 or 3 others of their choice for thematically appropriate skills, such as handle animal or survival. A Weather Mage might choose Perform(dance) to do the rituals people expect of him, while he really knows his power comes from within. Or he might not know that at all.

Finally, if you use the Sorcerer as your base class, you might want to modify or eliminate the Familar depending on character concept. Modification might include allowing an elemental familiar at a higher level for pure elemental mages, granting a domain ability, or some magic oriented feat.

Basically this will create a class of spell users that is devoted to some aspect of the world, they will be very good at casting spells realted to that aspect of the world. If I am reading you correctly, you are talking about a time after shaministic/totemic magics but before systemitized "schools" and similar divisions. If so, I think that this might work for you, especially if you want to use the idea of sorcerous families or traditions to explain why some people have powers that work a certain way. Although, it may mean either you doing a lot of work, or you and your players make careful decisions based more on what is most in keeping with your world and less on what is best for their particular PC.

 

[Dogbrain]

divine magic is granted by some gods, while arcane magic is powered by some mystical energy, force, or some other variety of "mana". In your vision of the PIE model, how does magic work?

There is no differentiation between "gods" and "mystical force". In some sense, there is no fundamental difference between "gods" and "not gods", but in another sense, they are utterly different.

I do know that taboos would be very important, no matter what system I end up using. Taboos (sometimes very strange ones) would be intimately tied to "magico-religious power" (to steal a term from some comparitive religion scholars).

I'm thinking of some of the taboos and theory behind them mentioned in the Golden Bough. The line between "holy" and "too dangerous" is somewhat blurred--"blessed" and "cursed" are intertwined. "Powerful" and "vulnerable" are intertwined.

 

[Dogbrain]

I'd think you want to develop a very elementalist caster. Correct?

Upon reflection--no. The "elements" are too well-developed for this culture. They're even before the most ancient Greek systems that would posit only one or two "elements" for the entire universe.

I see lots of tied dualities:

Life/Death
Wisdom/Folly
Power/Weakness

But I also want to incorporate the very strong "tripartite" way of thinking that survives to the present day in Indo-European cultures (Congress, President, Supreme Court, for example). Heavens/Earth/Underworld, Birth/Life/Death all are together and none can exist without the other.