Psion as Wizard archetype − Happy Fun Hour

[Yaarel]

It is important to me, the psion be a full caster. There archetypes of psychics who wield high level powers. For example, the level 9 Wish spell − focusing on a desire and making it reality − is the purest form of mental exertion.

Wizard mechanics guarantee full casting. I am concerned warlock mechanics lacks at high levels. Similarly, the current design for the mystic class lacks at high levels.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well, I was responding to the suggestions other people had made that psions/mystics/psychics/whatever should be a subclass of wizard or some other existing class. Presumably the people who made those suggestions aren't satisfied with the UA mystic class.

"Make it a sub-class" is often a suggestion you hear from the other side of the discussion, entirely, not those who want psionics but are unhappy with the Mystic, but those who don't want psionics, at all.

All I'm saying is, I'd rather have a full-fledged psychic class -- whether it's like the UA mystic or something different -- than to have psychic powers be relegated entirely to subclasses. But if I wanted a psychic class right now and I (or the DM) wasn't happy with the mystic for whatever reason, then I could get by with a wizard or sorcerer that specialized in mind-affecting spells.

OK, not really see'n it, myself, but if that's how you feel.

Hence my suggestion of using levels of exhaustion. It has the dual advantage of being a rule that already exists, while at the same time isn't utilized by any of the other flavors of spellcaster, which would give psychics a unique feel.

Exhaustion is a pretty heavy mechanic for limiting something as diverse and often-manifested as psionic powers.

Sure, there are lots of spells that allow for that sort of thing, but what I'm saying is that I don't equate "psychic" with "someone who can teleport". If you say there's historical precedent, I'll take your word for it --

Double-checking, I was wrong in two out of three of those. Teleportation & Aportation are both younger than I thought. Dematerialization, though, I was correct about.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Sure, there are lots of spells that allow for that sort of thing, but what I'm saying is that I don't equate "psychic" with "someone who can teleport". If you say there's historical precedent, I'll take your word for it -- though I don't think stage magicians really count. While there may be conceptual overlap between the two (a lot of stage magicians do mind-reading tricks, obviously), magicians have plenty of tricks in their repertoire that I wouldn't consider "psychic powers".

I think some of the inspiration for what Psionics can do in D&D is based on what Yogis could do...

The wiki entry on Siddhis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

 

[Yaarel]

Double-checking, I was wrong in two out of three of those. Teleportation & Aportation are both younger than I thought. Dematerialization, though, I was correct about.

Actually, teleportation is an aspect of Norse psionics. The texts describe it as ‘traveling at the speed of thought’. So, it exemplifies a concept that exists during the Viking Era, circa 800-1100.

The psionic phenomenon of teleportation is essentially an aspect of animism. The psychic presence (of a human, a rock, a sunbeam, a tree, a river, an animal, etcetera) projects outofbody (or sotospeak, out-of-rock, out-of-sunbeam). This means of remote presence can manifest ghost-like with a telekinetic force or influence. Normally, this projection results in bilocation where the physical body and the mental identity are in two locations. However a strong mental identity can actually alter the physical body to pull it into the new location where the mental projection is.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Actually, teleportation is an aspect of Norse psionics.

We were talking about the coining of the English word, 'teleportation.'

Supernatural beings have been appearing from nowhere forever, I assume.

 

[Wyvern]

OK, not really see'n it, myself, but if that's how you feel.

I'm not sure what it is that you think I feel, but I get the sense that you've misunderstood me. Or maybe I've misunderstood you. Or both. Either way, it seems like we're talking at cross-purposes here. Let me see if I can clear it up. When I mentioned making psychics a subclass of wizard or whatever, that wasn't *my* idea. It's what *other* people had suggested, starting with the OP. If you want to know why they suggested it, you should ask them, not me.

What *I* was saying was not that I *want* psychics to be a subclass of wizard, but that I would be willing to settle for that until we get something official. (Not that I'm actually planning on playing a psychic character in the foreseeable future; I'm speaking hypothetically here.) And for the record, I've only skimmed the rules for the UA mystic, not examined them in-depth, so I don't really have an opinion on them one way or the other.

Exhaustion is a pretty heavy mechanic for limiting something as diverse and often-manifested as psionic powers.

I wasn't suggesting it as consequence every time you use your psychic abilities -- only when you push yourself beyond your normal limits.

Dematerialization, though, I was correct about.

Sure, I can see dematerialization as a high-level discipline in the Path of the Body. OTOH, astral projection (which seems to be more-or-less what Yaarel is describing in the post above mine) would be a high-level discipline in the spirit medium branch of the Path of the Mind.

I think some of the inspiration for what Psionics can do in D&D is based on what Yogis could do...

The wiki entry on Siddhis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

Absolutely, I even made reference to that in my description of the Path of the Body. Though I wasn't familiar with the term "siddhi", so thanks for that link.

Wyvern

 

[Tony Vargas]

What *I* was saying was not that I *want* psychics to be a subclass of wizard, but that I would be willing to settle for that until we get something official. (Not that I'm actually planning on playing a psychic character in the foreseeable future; I'm speaking hypothetically here.) And for the record, I've only skimmed the rules for the UA mystic, not examined them in-depth, so I don't really have an opinion on them one way or the other.

Which is reasonable enough.

I'm used to seeing the sub-class option presented as an alternative rather than as a supplemental arrangement.

I also feel like they've had plenty of time to get the Mystic right and just release it already. It shouldn't be a gap that need stopping, at this point.

I wasn't suggesting it as consequence every time you use your psychic abilities -- only when you push yourself beyond your normal limits.

So other than that, at will?

 

[Wyvern]

We were talking about the coining of the English word, 'teleportation.'

Were you? I didn't realize that. I was just talking about the *concept*.

Supernatural beings have been appearing from nowhere forever, I assume.

The question (the one *I'm* asking, anyway) is not whether there's fictional or mythical precedent for teleportation, but whether it would be thought of as a specifically *psychic* power as opposed to simply *magic*. And while mental powers may very well be a good way of representing of Norse magic (I wouldn't know), I would contend that Norse magic is not what the average person associates with the words "psychic" or "psion". (That doesn't mean I'm trying to prevent anyone from making a psychic character that's outside of the norm -- only that I don't think those sorts of concepts should be the touchstone we use when designing the class.)

Wyvern

 

[Wyvern]

So other than that, at will?

I envision *most* disciplines being useable at-will, yes. With the option of being able to attempt disciplines that are either at or just above the limit of what you're capable of at the cost of exhaustion (which could possibly be mitigated if you're attuned to a crystal focus). If we follow the warlock model, your psychic would also have a small selection of spells that they can cast a limited number of times per day.

Or you could make everything an at-will ability, though that would require more design work to get the balance right since it departs further from any existing model. I'm not opposed to that either. What I *don't* really want to see, at least as a long-term solution, is an "all-spells-all-the-time" psychic. (If I just want to play a mind-mage, the enchanter already fills that niche; there's no need to create a new wizard archetype and slap a "psionic" label on it.)

Wyvern

 

[Yaarel]

Sure, I can see dematerialization as a high-level discipline in the Path of the Body. OTOH, astral projection (which seems to be more-or-less what Yaarel is describing in the post above mine) would be a high-level discipline in the spirit medium branch of the Path of the Mind.

All of the psionic concepts interconnect with eachother. For example, mental projection (Spirit telekinesis) results in clairvoyance (Mind divination). It is impossible to really separate one concept from the other. When clustering the effects into tropes, projecting ones mind outofbody correlates better with the path of Spirit, including the mental ‘force’ to relocate, thus teleport the body.

Outofbody differs from Astral Projection. The Astral Plane is a separate plane. By contrast, the outofbody mental projection travels thru the physical world, and can perceive and affect it. In D&D terms, it is more like ‘Ethereal Projection’, where the Ethereal Plane overlays the Material Plane.