Psion power balance questions

[Videssian]

Yes there is.

Psionic Telekinetic Sphere is based on Telekinetic Sphere which is based on Resilient Sphere which is immobile. None of these add movement to the Sphere with the exception of what the caster of Telekinetic Sphere can do by concentrating.


On the subject of Teleporting, Resilient Sphere states "Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

Just because you can use a different dimension to Teleport past a Wall of Force does not mean that you can do the same with a Resilient Sphere. This is an assumption not supported by the spell itself and I cannot find a rule that states that you can Teleport / Dimension Door past Force Effects.

I just reread both spells.. and you know, you're right. I think we've just been assuming that you can bypass it by teleporting (via the Astral) like some other force effects.. and after rereading it, I'm not so sure that's correct.

Personally, I like using Gaze effects against this tactic assuming that the DM rules that Resilient Sphere works just like Wall of Force (i.e. you can teleport in, you can gaze, etc.). If you look away, you cannot cast in that direction due to lack of Line of Sight.

Various Mist/Fog spells work well too. He cannot manifest against anyone more than 5 feet (+ radius of sphere) away, nor can he move up to them and manifest in a single round (shy of Schism or Quickened Powers or a psicrystal doing his movement concentration for him via Solicit Psicrystal). And Solid Fog should stop him in his tracks.

Historically, we have had a lot of nasty situations get diffused in our campaigns due to a timely use of Obscuring Mist.

It wouldn't apply inside the sphere, but outside of it, fog (for the character) is a non-issue.. Touchsight is SUCH a wonderful little power..

I also like the concept of a "Readied Cloudkill" if the opponent knows that he uses this tactic. Filling up the Sphere with deadly gas can be nasty.

Or another related sneaky tactic.. which I haven't had the chance to try yet.. darnit!!

 

[Nail]

I just reread both spells.. and you know, you're right. I think we've just been assuming that you can bypass it by teleporting (via the Astral) like some other force effects.. and after rereading it, I'm not so sure that's correct.

I am.

The sphere doesn't exist on the astral, and the astral plane doesn't map one-to-one on the prime. Since the movement from teleport (etc) occurs on the Astral, there's nothing for the spell to "stop".

Moreover, since the feat Burrowing Power describes using the Astral plane, ......

It wouldn't apply inside the sphere, but outside of it, fog (for the character) is a non-issue.. Touchsight is SUCH a wonderful little power..

Except that Touchsight can't pass through the sphere...it only helps you "see" those within the sphere.

....you could still teleport in nasties which are three sizes smaller than him, or that are incorporeal, since either of those could occupy his space quite nicely.

Great minds think alike! I did that to the psion two sessions ago (Oct 12th, 2005).

 

[Nail]

Plus, if you consider the sphere a similar force effect to a wall of force then you can use a simple escape artist check (dc 120) to get inside.

Very simple.

 

[Nail]

Personally, I like using Gaze effects against this tactic ......

Heh, heh, heh.

 

[KarinsDad]

It wouldn't apply inside the sphere, but outside of it, fog (for the character) is a non-issue.. Touchsight is SUCH a wonderful little power..

"To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can attempt to manifest your powers against targets that are sheltered behind a wall or force effect. Your power briefly skips through the Astral Plane to bypass the barrier."


Take note Nail:

For balance reasons, I would take a very literal reading of this and not allow powers that do not directly affect targets, or powers with a duration that exist on both sides of the sphere simultaneously (briefly does not mean continuously), to work with this.


I would not allow every Psionic power to be used with this.

So, an Obscuring Mist against a Psion using this (low PP add) feat would seriously hamper his ability to counterattack.


No Darkvision beyond the Sphere. No TouchSight beyond the Sphere. No Astral Contructs because the manifesting of them does not directly affect a target, etc.


PS. Darkvision and TouchSight also do not affect targets. They affect the manifester.

 

[Videssian]

I am.

The sphere doesn't exist on the astral, and the astral plane doesn't map one-to-one on the prime. Since the movement from teleport (etc) occurs on the Astral, there's nothing for the spell to "stop".

Moreover, since the feat Burrowing Power describes using the Astral plane, ......

Good.. I have to admit I prefer it the way we've been doing it.. allows for more creative possibilities

Except that Touchsight can't pass through the sphere...it only helps you "see" those within the sphere.

Yeah, I meant it in the context of when I don't have a sphere up in the first place..

Great minds think alike! I did that to the psion two sessions ago (Oct 12th, 2005).

Yep! I still have a little trick I mean to try.. if the opponents cooperate

 

[Videssian]

So, an Obscuring Mist against a Psion using this (low PP add) feat would seriously hamper his ability to counterattack.

True.. though doing that has potential advantages for the party also.. like, vision is blocked both ways, and they can't be sure in that instance that I haven't teleported out of the sphere and used it for a decoy.. and Nail knows I'm sneaky enough to do that..

No Darkvision beyond the Sphere. No TouchSight beyond the Sphere.

Which is how we've been playing it.

No Astral Contructs because the manifesting of them does not directly affect a target, etc.

This I tend to disagree with. If you can pick a point and target a creature at that point, then you ought to be able to target the point itself.. (depending on the spell and spell description cast of course, but in terms of discussing how the Burrowing power feat itself works, it seems reasonable to me).

 

[KarinsDad]

I am.

The sphere doesn't exist on the astral, and the astral plane doesn't map one-to-one on the prime. Since the movement from teleport (etc) occurs on the Astral, there's nothing for the spell to "stop".

Moreover, since the feat Burrowing Power describes using the Astral plane, ......

This makes an assumption about how magic works. If the spell stops everything, it stops everything. You are assuming that you have line of effect to the location where the Teleport ends when casting the Teleport, even though Telekinetic Sphere stops line of effect.

Think of it this way. If Teleport needs a way to "lock on" the target location and it cannot do so (because the Teleport goes through the Astral Plane, the lock on does not), the spell simply fails, just like other spells fail if some condition is not met.

Wall of Force, on the other hand, explicitly states within the spell that it does not prevent Teleport (i.e. does not prevent the lock on).

A given DM could rule either way since Telekinetic Sphere does not explicitly allow it like Wall of Force, nor are there any explicit rules about Teleport type spells versus Force Effect spells.

Except that Touchsight can't pass through the sphere...it only helps you "see" those within the sphere.

Agreed.

Burrowing allows the manifestation through. Not the continuous use through.

 

[KarinsDad]

This I tend to disagree with. If you can pick a point and target a creature at that point, then you ought to be able to target the point itself.. (depending on the spell and spell description cast of course, but in terms of discussing how the Burrowing power feat itself works, it seems reasonable to me).

Nothing wrong with either ruling from a "how does it work" perspective.


The issue, though, is one of balance. Since the feat specifies "manifest your powers against targets" (i.e. targeting opponents with a literal translation), that is what I would limit it to. Especially considering how broken this combination is.

There is a difference between targeting a point for where the power manifests and manifesting against a target.

The power does not manifest against the target point.

This could also be used to deny Area powers since they do not target the point you select either. No Effect power either.


Like I said, a very literal and strict interpretation to prevent abuse of the tactic.

With this strict of an interpretation, you could use it for Entangling Ectoplasm, but not for Energy Wall or Energy Ball.

 

[LokiDR]

My group's interpretation of the spell is that it literally prevents the passage of anything, including all spells, in the manner that I described in my post. I was assuming that this was the default understanding of how the two spells worked. Perhaps I was wrong. If so, then the DM really has NO grounds to be claiming that he can't touch touch the Psion and that the combo is overpowered. See, there's this spell called Acid Fog, and this other one called Mind Fog. And there's that spell that allows you to summon creatures, even on the other side of walls of force. Oh yeah, and don't forget Cloud Kill and Destruction. If the telekinetic sphere only blocks spells that require line of effect and physical movement there are SO MANY OPTIONS, even at low levels.

Oh wait, I see what you're saying. You're interpreting the description of wall of force to imply that a Wall of Force blocks all spells, even those that don't require line of effect? Weird. I don't think our group ever used Wall of Force like that. We only had it block line of effect spells, since allowing it to block line of sight spells never made much sense to us. If that's the case, I can understand your argument.

Wall of Force clearly blocks line of effect. As it is invisible, it clearly does NOT block line of sight. If you don't know it is there, you may waste a power that requires line of effect, but you don't need to make that mistake twice. A literalist reading of TS doesn't disallow all spells, just passage through the barrier. I would like to note that, if you can't get in by extradimentional means, Burrowing Power should fail as well, as it is a extradimentional effect.