Psion power balance questions

[LokiDR]

As far as I can recall force effects on the prime do not extend into the astral plane where teleportation occurs. So, teleport pulls you out of the prime in one spot and puts you back in another but at no point did you have to move 'through' the spheres edge.

It can't extend into the astral, else Burrowing Power is useless (stating it goes through the astral plane).

Plus, if you consider the sphere a similar force effect to a wall of force then you can use a simple escape artist check (dc 120) to get inside.

"Simple" check of 120. How is that simple again?

 

[LokiDR]

Yes there is.

Psionic Telekinetic Sphere is based on Telekinetic Sphere which is based on Resilient Sphere which is immobile. None of these add movement to the Sphere with the exception of what the caster of Telekinetic Sphere can do by concentrating.

If you read TS again, you will notice it is significantly different than Resilient Sphere. Most notably "with the addition that the creatures or objects inside the globe are nearly weightless. Anything contained within an telekinetic sphere weighs only one-sixteenth of its normal weight." TS is very specifically NOT immobile.

On the subject of Teleporting, Resilient Sphere states "Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

Where is it stated teleport is movement throught the interviening space? You teleport, cease being in one place and continue your existance in a different place. If your exculsion is correct, there is little issue in the game, as the psion couldn't use Burrowing Power. As Burrow works explicitly on force effects, I think your reading is incorrect.

Just because you can use a different dimension to Teleport past a Wall of Force does not mean that you can do the same with a Resilient Sphere. This is an assumption not supported by the spell itself and I cannot find a rule that states that you can Teleport / Dimension Door past Force Effects.

Wall of Force is a standard for understanding force barriors. It is clear line of interpretation between Wall of Force and a "globe of shimmering force".

This makes an assumption about how magic works. If the spell stops everything, it stops everything. You are assuming that you have line of effect to the location where the Teleport ends when casting the Teleport, even though Telekinetic Sphere stops line of effect.

Think of it this way. If Teleport needs a way to "lock on" the target location and it cannot do so (because the Teleport goes through the Astral Plane, the lock on does not), the spell simply fails, just like other spells fail if some condition is not met.

Teleport DOES NOT need line of effect or line of sight. You have always been able to teleport into closed buildings, ect.

I wonder why everyone here is so insistant on the sphere being transparent. What is your basis for this? Especially if the spell states it stops everything from passing through, shouldn't that mean light as well?

 

[KarinsDad]

If you read TS again, you will notice it is significantly different than Resilient Sphere. Most notably "with the addition that the creatures or objects inside the globe are nearly weightless. Anything contained within an telekinetic sphere weighs only one-sixteenth of its normal weight." TS is very specifically NOT immobile.

One does not follow from the other.

Just because creatures inside the sphere are nearly weightless does not mean that the sphere can move (outside of caster concentration).

It means that they can jump to the top of the sphere easily. It also means that the caster can move them (up to a certain weight) by concentrating:

"This spell functions like resilient sphere, with the addition that the creatures or objects inside the globe are nearly weightless. Anything contained within an telekinetic sphere weighs only one-sixteenth of its normal weight. You can telekinetically lift anything in the sphere that normally weighs 5,000 pounds or less. The telekinetic control extends from you out to medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per caster level) after the sphere has succeeded in encapsulating its contents.

You can move objects or creatures in the sphere that weigh a total of 5,000 pounds or less by concentrating on the sphere."

The sphere is still immobile by any other method.

Where is it stated teleport is movement throught the interviening space? You teleport, cease being in one place and continue your existance in a different place. If your exculsion is correct, there is little issue in the game, as the psion couldn't use Burrowing Power. As Burrow works explicitly on force effects, I think your reading is incorrect.

Just because you can move through the intervening space does not mean that you can necessarily target your teleport through the intervening space.

"Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

The Burrowing Power feat explicitly allows one to go through the Astra Plane to bypass force effects. The Teleport spell does not explicitly allow you to bypass force effects (which disallows anything from passing through), regardless of the fact that it uses the Astra Plane to move you there. Wall of Force does explicitly allow Teleport to work through it. But, Wall of Force is not Resilient Sphere or Telekinetic Sphere.

This is an ok interpretation, but it is not the only possible interpretation.

Wall of Force is a standard for understanding force barriors. It is clear line of interpretation between Wall of Force and a "globe of shimmering force".

Nothing of the sort. A given DM can rule this, but one spell does not automatically work just like another unless the spells or rules state so.

This is an extrapolation of the rules.

Again, this is an ok interpretation, but it is not the only possible interpretation.

Teleport DOES NOT need line of effect or line of sight. You have always been able to teleport into closed buildings, ect.

I wonder why everyone here is so insistant on the sphere being transparent. What is your basis for this? Especially if the spell states it stops everything from passing through, shouldn't that mean light as well?

Good point. It would tend to make much of the abuse of the tactic not doable if you have no method of seeing through the Sphere.

I think a lot of assumptions about Telekinetic Sphere derive directly from how Wall of Force works (e.g. invisible, teleports work through it, gaze attacks work through it, etc.).

 

[Scion]

It can't extend into the astral, else Burrowing Power is useless (stating it goes through the astral plane).

Which would be unfortunate, but as I couldnt find the direct rule I worded it as I did.

But, just because it would make something useless does not mean that it isnt true.

The evidence we have seen however so far implies that force effects do not go into the astral plane.

Even if it did however that wouldnt directly mean that it couldnt be bypassed there however, who knows what shape it is 'there'

"Simple" check of 120. How is that simple again?

Completely simple, just get 120 or higher. It isnt a multistep process after all, you either succeed or fail, in a matter of seconds.

It may be incredibly 'difficult' to get that level of bonus, but the check is simple enough! Most people fail at the task however.

 

[LokiDR]

One does not follow from the other.
....
The sphere is still immobile by any other method.

Bah, giant hampsterball is more fun.

Just because you can move through the intervening space does not mean that you can necessarily target your teleport through the intervening space.

"Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

You are missing the point. Teleport and related effects ARE NOT MOVEMENT. At no point do you ever move through the barrior. You simply pop into existance in the barrior. Teleport is not gaseous form or ethereal jaunt, there is no movement involved.

The Burrowing Power feat explicitly allows one to go through the Astra Plane to bypass force effects. The Teleport spell does not explicitly allow you to bypass force effects (which disallows anything from passing through), regardless of the fact that it uses the Astra Plane to move you there. Wall of Force does explicitly allow Teleport to work through it. But, Wall of Force is not Resilient Sphere or Telekinetic Sphere.

This is an ok interpretation, but it is not the only possible interpretation.

You hang an awful lot off of "nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out" and conventional sense of movement. Resilient sphere does NOT say it blocks inter-planar travel, and there is no general provision on force effects stoping interplanar travel, except ethereal. Its not as simple as saying 'I can do it, line X of Y says so', but it is clearly the best interpretation given the rule set. My interpretation is based on consistancy, yours seems arbitrary.

Nothing of the sort. A given DM can rule this, but one spell does not automatically work just like another unless the spells or rules state so.

This is an extrapolation of the rules.

Again, this is an ok interpretation, but it is not the only possible interpretation.

I have never said it is the only interpretation, but I maintain it is the best. It fosters consistancy in the rules and sense of cosmological natural law. Wall of Force gives us the most explanation of what is and is not stopped by the barrier. Interpreting the rules so they make sense and are cohesive is better than arbitrary decisions.

Good point. It would tend to make much of the abuse of the tactic not doable if you have no method of seeing through the Sphere.

I think a lot of assumptions about Telekinetic Sphere derive directly from how Wall of Force works (e.g. invisible, teleports work through it, gaze attacks work through it, etc.).

I mentioned the shimmering to invisible difference, but there was little interest. I'd guess most people already have made up their minds how it works despite what is writen.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have never said it is the only interpretation, but I maintain it is the best. It fosters consistancy in the rules and sense of cosmological natural law. Wall of Force gives us the most explanation of what is and is not stopped by the barrier. Interpreting the rules so they make sense and are cohesive is better than arbitrary decisions.

It is more arbitrary to say "Well, Wall of Force does this, so all force effects do this".

 

[helium3]

It really bothers me that gaze attacks are not blocked by a wall of force, but all other spell effects (except dim door and teleport) are. I know I shouldn't expect consistency from an RPG, but it still bugs when it isn't there.

 

[KarinsDad]

It really bothers me that gaze attacks are not blocked by a wall of force, but all other spell effects (except dim door and teleport) are. I know I shouldn't expect consistency from an RPG, but it still bugs when it isn't there.

I suspect the reason is that Wall of Force is invisible, so that you can see outside it.

Or, maybe Gaze attacks move through the Astral Plane.

 

[Nail]

Or, maybe Gaze attacks move through the Astral Plane.

(Great. Now there's Coke sprayed all over my monitor. Warn me next time, KarinsDad!

 

[KarinsDad]

(Great. Now there's Coke sprayed all over my monitor. Warn me next time, KarinsDad!

Guess your Coke was not Burrowing.