Psion power balance questions

[Nail]

Another thing that seems to be overlooked in this thread is that the Astral Construct power only summons one creature.. a Summon Monster spell can summon multiples (of a slightly lower power).. .

True. But for many spell levels, the lesser powered multiple monsters are *very* weak...and very suseptible to Power Attacks, etc. Fortunately my DMs haven't realized....err, wait. You are my DM sometimes, ain't ya, Videssian?

 

[KarinsDad]

Now, possibly the comparison breaks down at lower spell levels, I didn't map it all out. Someone else can take the time to do that.

Actually, it does not quite map out as you laid it out.

The high level Astral Construct gets two abilities from Menu C (or one from C, two from B, etc.). The manifester could pick:

Extra Buff + 30 HP
Extra DR, +6
Extra AC, +8. This one is HUGE compared to the other Summoned Bruisers.
Naturally Invisible

or, even Fly (to fight the Air Elemental)


So for example:

Elder Fire Elemental
Size H
AC 25
Speed 60
hp 204
Attacks +26/+26 (2d8+6 + 2d8 fire)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Earth Elemental
Size H
AC 22
Speed 30
hp 228
Attacks +27/+27 (2d10+11/19-20 crit)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Water Elemental
Size H
AC 23
Speed 30 / swim 120
hp 228
Attacks +25/+25 (2d10+9/19-20 crit)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Air Elemental
Size H
AC 27
Speed fly 100
hp 204
Attacks +27/+27 (2d8+6)
15' reach
DR 10/--

9th level Astral Construct
Size H
AC 41
Speed 50
hp 174
Attacks +28/+28 (2d6+16)
15' reach
DR 15/magic


The Astral Construct hits the Elementals virtually everytime (95%) for about 26 points of damage per full round attack, 13 for single round attacks.

The Elementals hit the Astral Construct on average about 2 hits every 3 rounds for full round attacks, about 1 hit per 3 rounds for single round attacks. Most only do about 5 to 10 points per successful attack. The Elder Air Elemental can barely affect the Astral Construct due to his DR.

The DR of the Astral Construct is more effective against the Elementals because the Elementals do not have DR/magic, hence, they do not negate the ACs DR. DR 15 (or 21 if you take the DR menu item) is better than DR 10.

Neither creatures can critical the others, so bigger damage is not that important. Armor Class is important.

 

[KarinsDad]

I've always been partial to a few lantern archons flying around casting aid on everyone and zapping away myself

They cant take much damage, but they are just so cool.

Edit: having a creature with a constant 'tongues' going is pretty nice as well actually.. if you dont speak the enemies language you can still know what they are shouting to one another.

Depends on whether the DM allows conversation between turns, or only on turns. The former sometimes allows for more options.

Course, this can backfire too if the enemies realize that the Summoned Creature is telling everything it hears. My intelligent NPCs would jump all over this and put out false information.

 

[Pielorinho]

The Astral Construct hits the Elementals virtually everytime (95%) for about 26 points of damage per full round attack, 13 for single round attacks.

The Elementals hit the Astral Construct on average about 2 hits every 3 rounds for full round attacks, about 1 hit per 3 rounds for single round attacks. Most only do about 5 to 10 points per successful attack. The Elder Air Elemental can barely affect the Astral Construct due to his DR.

The DR of the Astral Construct is more effective against the Elementals because the Elementals do not have DR/magic, hence, they do not negate the ACs DR. DR 15 (or 21 if you take the DR menu item) is better than DR 10.

Neither creatures can critical the others, so bigger damage is not that important. Armor Class is important.

A few notes:
-It's very rare IMC that summoned creatures fight other summoned creatures: usually they're fighting PCs. It'd be better to compare them in fights against iconics, I think, or against CR 17 creatures.
-By the level that 9th-level summoned critters come forth, humanoids are pretty much all fighting with magic weapons. Therefore, the construct's DR is useless, whereas the elemental's stays strong.
-Astral constructs don't get feats. This is a big difference. Your elder earth elemental, for example, comes equipped with Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack. While not many of these are useful in a fight against a construct, they're very useful in other fights.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

A few notes:
-It's very rare IMC that summoned creatures fight other summoned creatures: usually they're fighting PCs. It'd be better to compare them in fights against iconics, I think, or against CR 17 creatures.
-By the level that 9th-level summoned critters come forth, humanoids are pretty much all fighting with magic weapons. Therefore, the construct's DR is useless, whereas the elemental's stays strong.
-Astral constructs don't get feats. This is a big difference. Your elder earth elemental, for example, comes equipped with Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack. While not many of these are useful in a fight against a construct, they're very useful in other fights.

What you say is true (as far as it goes).

That is why you give your 9th level Astral Construct Extra Buff and Extreme Deflection and it doesn't matter that his DR is worthless against magic weapons. His AC is still 41 compared to 22 to 27 for the Elementals. That's the difference between one Full Round attack hitting in a given round and all Full Round attacks hitting in a given round. The DR issue is pretty minor in the big picture.


Sure, your 17th Fighter can have a Strength of 26, +17 BAB, +5 Magic Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus for +31. If he uses a Greatsword with Weapon Specialization, he hits 55% of the time for 2D6+19 damage. Even with full round attacks, he only averages 95% full damage (55% + 30% + 5% + 5%) per round and it takes him 7 rounds to take out the Astral Contruct (if he Power Attacks, he does more damage if he hits, but hits less often).

The Astral Construct, on the other hand, will hit a 17th level AC 37 Fighter (+5 Mithral Full Plate, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, +3 for Dex, +1 for Dodge) with a Constitution of 24 (assuming he found a different slot for an Amulet of Health +6) and 217 hit points 60% of the time for 2D6+16 damage. With full round attacks, he averages 120% full damage per round and it takes him 8 rounds to take out the Fighter.


So, although the Astral Construct does not have the Fighter feats, it is nearly as powerful as a fairly decked out 17th level Fighter in straight up combat.

Plus, the Psion can bring on one on round two, another on round three, etc.

A 17th level Psion can bring in 17 or 18 such massive combatant types if he does nothing else in a day.


The same Fighter against the Elder Fire Elemental (i.e. arguably the most potent Elemental in the group) wipes it out in (95% + 95% + 85% + 60% = 335% * (26-10) = 54 points of damage) 4 Full Round Attack rounds. The Elder Fire Elemental takes (50% + 50% = 4D8+6 = 24 points of damage) 8 Full Round Attack rounds to take out the Fighter.


So, that extra AC helps the Astra Construct a lot. Sure, it does not have the feats of the Elementals, but it also doesn't get hit by 95% of most every weapon attack aimed it's way like they do at that type of level.

 

[Pielorinho]

The same Fighter against the Elder Fire Elemental (i.e. arguably the most potent Elemental in the group) wipes it out in (95% + 95% + 85% + 60% = 335% * (26-10) = 54 points of damage) 4 Full Round Attack rounds. The Elder Fire Elemental takes (50% + 50% = 4D8+6 = 24 points of damage) 8 Full Round Attack rounds to take out the Fighter.

Very interesting comparison! I wonder what happens, though, if you have the fire elemental fight using its feats. That is, what if every round, it spring-attacks the fighter?

This is useful because of its 15' reach and combat reflexes. It can blammo the fighter and retreat 10'. At that point, the fighter either needs to step forward 10' to attack (incurring an AoO and getting only a single attack), retreat 10' to missile-attack or drink a potion (incurring an AoO and getting only a single attack/standard action), or stand in place and missile-fire (incurring multiple AoO, if I understand combat reflexes).

Most likely, the fighter will run forward, meaning that the elemental gets two attacks at full attack bonus each round compared to the fighter's one. The fighter is therefore doing 15.2 points of damage each round to the elemental, taking about 14 rounds to wipe it out.

Also, did you include the elementals' Dodge feat in your analysis, and did you include the elemental's burn ability? I'm not sure.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

The fighter could also use a bow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

The fighter could also use a bow.

Are you talking about in my example? Certainly so--but if he uses the bow from within the elemental's reach, then he's going to suffer for it (as the elemental gets one AoO on him per shot he fires, and the elemental's attacks will all be at full BAB, whereas his will descend). If he uses the bow from a distance, then he only gets to fire one shot, and the elemental gets to take an AoO on him as he retreats, and the elemental can move forward next round to repeat the process.

In either case, the fighter is in trouble if he doesn't change his tactics, either taking to the air, or using a reach weapon, or drinking a potion of enlarge or protection from fire, or something like that.

Our sample fighter, if I understand correctly, can stand up one-on-one versus an astral construct; but against a fire elemental who uses its feats, the fighter will die in a straight-up battle.

Of course, the fighter can also use his own feats--spring attack, power attack, etc. Some of these will be useful against an astral construct as well, though: a fighter who spring-attacks against an astral construct does only 55% of his damage each round, but he also prevents the construct from doing more than 60% of his damage each round, a net gain for him.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

Are you talking about in my example? Certainly so--but if he uses the bow from within the elemental's reach, then he's going to suffer for it (as the elemental gets one AoO on him per shot he fires, and the elemental's attacks will all be at full BAB, whereas his will descend).

Yes, against Spring Attack. If the elemental does not have 20 ft. reach, there won't be any AoO.

If it ends at 5-10 ft., the fighter can attack in close combat, if it ends up at 15 ft., the fighter can 5-ft. step out of the threatened area, quick draw the bow and fire away.

But, admittedly, that's not really relevant for the comparison.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, against Spring Attack. If the elemental does not have 20 ft. reach, there won't be any AoO.

If it ends at 5-10 ft., the fighter can attack in close combat, if it ends up at 15 ft., the fighter can 5-ft. step out of the threatened area, quick draw the bow and fire away.

But, admittedly, that's not really relevant for the comparison.

Bye
Thanee

D'oh! You're right; I was somehow thinking that if it ended 10' away, the fighter would have to step 10' in to attack, not 5'. My fault. This makes spring attack less useful.

However, even in this case, the elemental has a good option: force the fighter to switch between melee and missile each round. Either the fighter will switch via dropping the current weapon and quickdrawing the other--in which case after a couple rounds of switching, he'll be down to his least effective weapons (the rest scattered across the battlefield); or he'll take the time to sheath his weapon (incurring an AoO) and only be able to make one attack.

Interestingly, I think an air elemental would present even a greater threat in this situation: for 12 rounds it can whirlwind, and in this time it can pass repeatedly over the fighter until it sucks the fighter up. Once it's got the fighter in its grasp, it's an easy matter to double-move up until it can drop the fighter for 20d6 points of falling damage. Note that it can do this to many opponents at once.

The earth elemental may have serious troubles against the fighter: I was thinking he could sunder the fighter's weapon, but if it's a +5 blade, this is going to be very difficult. He'll have more luck on the sundering front if the fighter is using a 1-handed weapon.

Daniel