Psion power balance questions

[Scion]

The word invaluable means priceless. It means that the information is so valuable that you cannot calculate the value.

If you can calculate the value then feel free.

if you wish to enumerate the situations where it wont do much for you I would say that you should not feel free. One can list an unbounded number of situations for each, but just because there are situations where it is less useful does not mean that it is not invaluable when it is useful.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you can calculate the value then feel free.

if you wish to enumerate the situations where it wont do much for you I would say that you should not feel free. One can list an unbounded number of situations for each, but just because there are situations where it is less useful does not mean that it is not invaluable when it is useful.

If it is useless sometimes and useful sometimes, it is not "an invaluable tool". That's like saying a hammer is good even when you need a screwdriver. A hammer is only good when you need a hammer and even then, other tools can be used in the place of a hammer. Hammers are useful, but they are not invaluable. Very few things in life outside of air to breathe and food/water to consume are invaluable.

In any case, I'm out on this part of this conversation. When it gets down to nitpicking semantics, it's time to move on to something "useful, but not invaluable".

 

[Scion]

If it is useless sometimes and useful sometimes, it is not "an invaluable tool".

There are always situations where something will be useless. However, there are tools that are invaluable.

Therefore I would have to say your conclusion is completely incorrect.


It 'is' an invaluable tool, it just isnt 'always' useful. When it is useful is is invaluable, when it is not useful it is simply a potential boon to your side.

 

[Pielorinho]

Actually, a smart Psion is going to give the Astral Construct Extreme Deflection and Constrict Ability (i.e. Improved Grab) in a Astral Construct vs. Fighter duel and the Astral Construct is going to kill the Fighter and only take a few points of damage in return since the grapple of the Astral Construct is 38. The Fighter's only hope is a Ring of Free Movement (or allies or magic of some type).

We can switch to the Improved Grab ability if you'd like, but if you do, I claim prerogative for the druid to switch to summoning 1d4+1 T-Rexes.

Each of them has a grapple of +30, each has more hit points than the construct, each does (half a point) more damage than the construct, and they can surround, flank, and chew up the fighter. As soon as one succeeds in grappling him, the others can "fight" for the prize, all joining into the grapple.

(Hmm, just notice the t-rex gets one attack to the construct's two. Scratch the part about more damage--but still, in total you're almost certainly getting more attacks with the T-rexes).

Of course, our druid may prefer to summon 1d3 rocs instead, if the fight is outdoors: each has more hit points, each gets three attacks doing a total of more damage, the grapple score is as high or almost as high (depending on whether the "higher ground" bonus applies to grapple attempts from the air), and the grapple attempt can be done in a flyby attack, making it very difficult for the fighter's allies to join in the fun. With two rocs, the druid is likely to be able to kill twice as many fighters.

Granting that apples-to-apples comparisons are very difficult in this case, I'm just not seeing a clear case that constructs are more powerful than summoned critters.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

We can switch to the Improved Grab ability if you'd like, but if you do, I claim prerogative for the druid to switch to summoning 1d4+1 T-Rexes.

And here I thought we were talking about the Summon Monster spell.

Granting that apples-to-apples comparisons are very difficult in this case, I'm just not seeing a clear case that constructs are more powerful than summoned critters.

I think at the top end, you are correct. Any of these spells / powers can pull in something fairly nasty and there is quite a bit of versatility.

It is at the mid to bottom end when most summoned creatures (especially if the players / DM try to not cast evil creatures if they are good, etc.) are fairly weak whereas the constructs are not. For example, if a psion needs to fly, pull in a level 1 (for a small character) or level 2 (for a medium character) construct that can fly and carry the character (and actually, a level 1 construct can carry at an encumbered speed most medium sized psions unless they weigh a lot).

For Summon Monster, that is level 3 (Hippogriff). For Summon Natures Ally, it is level 2 (also a Hippogriff). A level 2 Summon Monster or level 1 Summon Natures Ally (Celestial) Eagle could carry most small Psions, although probably encumbered.

So, if you have 4 PCs where one is a Psion, anywhere from 4 to 12 PP depending will get you to the top of a tower, even though you do not have the Fly or Levitate powers and you can accomplish this by level 3.

If you have 4 PCs where one is a Druid, either 4 Summon Natures Ally II spells are needed, or 2 Summon Natures Ally III spells are need (if you roll average). Minimum level 5th.

If you have 4 PCs where one is a Sorcerer, either 4 Summon Monster III spells are needed, or 2 Summon Monster III spells are need (if you roll average). Minimum level 4th (and using up all of his highest level spells).

If you have 4 PCs where one is a Wizard, either 4 Summon Monster III spells are needed, or 2 Summon Monster III spells are need (if you roll average). Minimum level 4th (and studied explicitly to do this or using scrolls).

Plus, the Sorcerer / Wizard needs the appropriate Summon Monster spell. A different Summon Monster spell might not work. The Psion only needs to know one Astral Construct power.

Granted, the Hippogriff has a higher fly speed, so you might be able to make more round trips or something. But at specific low levels, 4 rounds is 4 rounds. Not a lot of leeway.


But, this is just one example at the lower end. My psion tended to use her constructs more out of combat than in due to the one round manifestation time, but in certain extremely poor lighting conditions (like a large pitch dark cavern), used them a lot. The other classes do not have these types of options. If you want to pull in T-Rexes to grapple, you had better hope there is good light. Sure, you might be able to pull in something with Darkvision, but it probably will not have the other combat options you want.

For example, most Summoned Creatures are not immune to criticals. Constructs are.

All in all, better AC, darkvision, construct immunities, and totally flexible with regard to "add on" options.

The main advantages of Summoned creatures are that you can get more than one lower level one and that some Summoned creatures can cast spells.

 

[Pielorinho]

I think at the top end, you are correct. Any of these spells / powers can pull in something fairly nasty and there is quite a bit of versatility.

It is at the mid to bottom end when most summoned creatures (especially if the players / DM try to not cast evil creatures if they are good, etc.) are fairly weak whereas the constructs are not. For example, if a psion needs to fly, pull in a level 1 (for a small character) or level 2 (for a medium character) construct that can fly and carry the character (and actually, a level 1 construct can carry at an encumbered speed most medium sized psions unless they weigh a lot).

Again, I'm just not convinced. I've played a druid through 14 levels, slowly, and I've summoned air elementals to clear away poisonous gases, snakes to slip through holes, thoqquas to help me melt the bars of a portcullis, earth elementals to glide through stone to retrieve an object, unicorns to heal me, and so on.

I've not played a psion, so I don't know how versatile they are; but the druid's summoning ability has been extremely versatile, even in 3.0.

Daniel

 

[Scion]

For comparisons at this level how about the Leonal? He is a pretty cool little guy.

I take it this means that my question earlier was ignored? lol


I am really trying to get a grasp of what people feel is overpowered about the astral constructs but for the most part it seems to come down to comparing apples to oranges (summons vs constructs.. the summons have incredible versitility which the constructs simply cannot hope to match vs the constructs greater potential ability in combat, if that is even true).


The Leonal seems to be better overall to me for most combats, he just has incredible abilities.


But I just want a concise list of reasons about what the issues are and when they are likely to pop up.

 

[IanB]

I left out the menu abilities deliberately, just as I left out the huge pile of feats that the elementals have and any special attacks, because I felt they balanced out, roughly.

Basically what I see is a list that can only really summon melee fighters vs. one that can bring in all sorts of odd abilities and corner cases on the fly - and melee units that barely suffer (if at all) in comparison. I don't really find the 'constructs can fly you to a top of the tower 2 levels earlier' argument especially compelling, given the short durations of powers and limited spell/power pools of casters/psions at those levels.

Just eyeballing the list and sticking to Summon Monster, not Summon Nature's Ally, it looks like the astral constructs are better in durability but similar in damage output at level 1-2, at level 3 they are surpassed by the fiendish ape and fiendish huge centipede in offense and from then on it looks pretty similar, with the construct getting a bit of an edge at some but not all levels.

Summon Nature's Ally looks very good in comparison, as it gets the elementals and animals a level earlier without any (elementals) or much (animals) reduction in raw offensive output. Dire bear vs. 6th level astral construct largely erases the AC's advantage vs. the Summon Monster list at that level, for example.

I really don't see a big problem.

 

[Zimbel]

Cr 3

CR 3 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Medium Air Elemental, Allip, Wyrmling Black Dragon, Wyrmling Brass Dragon, Cockatrice, Wyrmling Copper Dragon, Derro, Dopleganger, Dryad, Ethereal Filcher, Ethereal Marauderer, Air Mephit, Dust Mephit, Gelatinous Cube, Phantom Fungus, Rust Monster, Shadow, Wight due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 16.
All
Mean: HP 26.7 AC 16.0 Average damage: 6.4
St dev: HP 10.7 AC 2.4 damage: 4.3

Battler only
Mean: HP 27.4 AC 16.3 Average damage: 8.1
St dev: HP 10.6 AC 2.1 damage: 3.9


For comparison:
4th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 47 AC 22 Average damage: 14.175
St dev from all: HP 1.89 AC 2.45 Damage: 0.97
St Dev from battler only: HP 1.86 AC 2.75 Damage: 0.64

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 4th level astral construct's combat stats are almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 69 (or 50 in the battler only), the highest AC is 23 (23 for battler only). Note, however, that its HP are very high, and its damage is also high.

 

[Zimbel]

Methodology nitpick

Methodology nitpick with the summons/astral construct comparison:

Since the AC is by definition the 'best' creature to summon on the AC "list" it really only makes sense to compare it directly to the 'best' melee bruisers on the summon monster lists. In most cases I think that means comparing it to the elementals.

Fair enough. I'm still on the question of if Astral Contructs are too strong for their CR. Judging from how long it's taken me so far, I suspect it'll be another 1-2 weeks before I can fully and throughly answer that question

And, yes, I agree with multiple posters that one should look at an astral construct's special abilities for a full comparison. To simplify the problem, I'll look at those that improve their damage/ to hit/ AC/ HP. I'll try to include that when I do an analysis of the combined numbers (essentially running numbers both with and without special abilities).