Psion power balance questions

[Scion]

(of course, I'd still like to see a 1st level equivalent spell to protect against them though!)

Given their insanely low will save how about sanctuary?

 

[Nail]

Given their insanely low will save how about sanctuary?

Not quite. Sanctuary doesn't allow the subject to attack anything, PfE does.

 

[Scion]

Not quite. Sanctuary doesn't allow the subject to attack anything, PfE does.

You are adding a condition that was not there nail. Poor form.

They each have their tradeoffs, but that spell does fit the bill for what was asked.

Sanctuary works on a much broader range of opponents as well. If you could get the dc up it would make you nearly immune to almost anything for a time.

Protection from evil only protects against some of the summons and they have a built in way to defeat it (SR).

 

[Nail]

You are adding a condition that was not there nail. Poor form.

This is a new phrase for you. Could I politely ask that you refrain from using it?

They each have their tradeoffs, but that spell does fit the bill for what was asked.

I disagree.

PfE protects you from SM, allows a (low) chance of SR, and allows you to attack any but the summoned creature.

Sanctuary allows a save to protect you from A-C, and prevents you from attacking anyone.

I'd hardly call that fitting the bill.

 

[Scion]

This is a new phrase for you. Could I politely ask that you refrain from using it?

It seemed like a pretty polite way to say that you were changing the rules as we go along in order to give yourself a better case.

I was not saying it to be insulting, I was saying it to make you aware that I was not happy with your attempt to change the rules.

But I can say the longer one if you prefer.

I disagree.

PfE protects you from SM, allows a (low) chance of SR, and allows you to attack any but the summoned creature.

Sanctuary allows a save to protect you from A-C, and prevents you from attacking anyone.

I'd hardly call that fitting the bill.

Lets check, what was the bill again?

(of course, I'd still like to see a 1st level equivalent spell to protect against them though!)

So, sanctuary.
First level equivalent. Check.
Protects vs them. Check.

No other requirements..

The bill seems to be fit perfectly. What part am I missing?

Also, as I said before, sanctuary protects against a wide range of attacks besides.
Plus, protection from evil only protects against nongood summons that the person isnt going to attack or move against and the summon gets a chance to break it via its built in SR (hd +5 SR means that while they do not have a huge chance to break it the chance is there nonetheless.. given the constructs low will save the two chances could be pretty equal).

No, they are not exactly the same, but they dont have to be. It is a first level spell that protects vs the constructs.

The fact that it has different other benefits and drawbacks is a bit secondary.

 

[Nail]

It seemed like a pretty polite way to say ......

In this regard, you and Karinsdad have much in common.

Lets check, what was the bill again?


So, sanctuary.
First level equivalent. Check.
Protects vs them. Check.

"Check" over that first requirement again.

 

[Scion]

In this regard, you and Karinsdad have much in common.

We dont like to be asked for one thing and then after providing it being told that the requirements have changed and so it is no longer useful?

I would imagine everyone is in that boat.

"Check" over that first requirement again.

Sanctuary
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Protection 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No
Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

Protection from Evil
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text
This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects.
First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
Arcane Material Component: A little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded.

Emphasis mine.

Note that equivalent doesnt mean that everything is the same.

And, for this purpose, the spells are pretty much equivalent.


They both prevent bodily contact. Neither protects against other things that the creatures could do.

Although overall the summons have more 'other' type abilities, but apparently we are only interested in touching around here.

 

[Nail]

We dont like to be asked for one thing and then after providing it being told that the requirements have changed and so it is no longer useful?

It seems we're talking past each other here. I'll bow out of this thread.

.... but apparently we are only interested in touching around here.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Zimbel]

Cr2,1,.5

CR 2 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Medium Animated Object, Blink Dog, Imp, Giant Bombardier Beettle Satyr Shocker Lizard, Large Viper, Vargouille, wyrmling white dragon due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 16.
All
Mean: HP 20.4 AC 15.5 Average damage: 4.8
St dev: HP 8.9 AC 2.0 damage: 1.6

Battler only
Mean: HP 21.2 AC 15.6 Average damage: 6.6
St dev: HP 9.1 AC 2.0 damage: 2.7


For comparison:
3rd level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 36 AC 20 Average damage: 11.025
St dev from all: HP 1.74 AC 2.20 Damage: 0.61
St Dev from battler only: HP 1.61 AC 2.18 Damage: 0.16

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 3rd level astral construct's combat stats are almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 44 (or 35 in the battler only), the highest AC is 23 (23 for battler only). Note, however, that its HP are high.

CR 1 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Small Animated Object, Shreiker, Giant Bee, Deep Gnome, Homunculus, Manta Ray, PseudoDragon, Medium Viper, Grig, Nixie, Squid due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 15.
All
Mean: HP 12.3 AC 15.1 Average damage: 2.5
St dev: HP 5.1 AC 2.2 damage: 1.7

Battler only
Mean: HP 12.6 AC 15.1 Average damage: 3.0
St dev: HP 5.4 AC 1.4 damage: 1.6


For comparison:
2nd level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 31 AC 18 Average damage: 3.9375
St dev from all: HP 3.66 AC 1.33 Damage: 0.86
St Dev from battler only: HP 3.38 AC 2.01 Damage: 0.31

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 2nd level astral construct's combat stats are almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 43 (or 32 in the battler only), the highest AC is 23 (23 for battler only). Note, however, that its HP are higher than anything in the sample (29 from the max of the sample).


CR 0.5 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Tiny Animated Object, Small Spider, Small Viper, Stirge due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 15.
All
Mean: HP 6.2 AC 14.6 Average damage: 2.0
St dev: HP 3.2 AC 1.3 damage: 1.0

Battler only
Mean: HP 6.5 AC 14.5 Average damage: 2.2
St dev: HP 3.3 AC 1.2 damage: 0.9


For comparison:
1st level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 15 AC 18 Average damage: 2.60
St dev from all: HP 2.72 AC 2.73 Damage: 0.61
St Dev from battler only: HP 2.57 AC 2.87 Damage: 0.19

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 1st level astral construct's combat stats are almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 36 (or 32 in the battler only), the highest AC is 17 (17 for battler only). Note, however, that its HP are higher than anything in the samlpe (13 from the max of the sample).

 

[Zimbel]

Analysis of CR for Astral Constructs

The last several posts I made form the foundation for this one. Assuming that no speicial abilities are chosen that affect their combat stats, what is the approparite CR for the astral contructs?

Conclusion:
The CRs should be:

Construct level 1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9 
Listed CR       0.5  1    2    3    5    7    8    9   10    
Correct CR      1    2    3    4    6    7    8    9   10

Note that the CR for the Following constructs is built on incomplete data: 4th level, 5th level.

Analysis:
Of the data in prior posts, the most useful comparitive data appears to be stadard deviations away from the mean. a value that's too large is strongly indicative of a creature being at an incorrect CR; a value that's too small is indicative that the CR is wrong if and only if the creature is a front-line battler whose primary effect is melee damage. Since it's nice to collate the information into a single number, I propose the following formula to be a CR tester; i.e. a determiner if the listed CR is too low for a front-line battler:
(SD = Standard Deviations from mean(signed), after the "battler" filter)
If SD(HP) + SD(AC) + SD(Damage) > 3, then the listed CR is too low.

The reasons I choose 3 instead of a lower value are 1) There should be quite a bit of variation within each CR, and 2) even with the "battler" filter, a number of creatures in the sample are not optimized for these stats for their CR.

Most of the curvevs in question are not normal distributions, so it would be hasty to draw precise mathematical conclusions from the above, but given the above forumla, very few creatures in our entire sample should indicate that their CR is too low. Noting 6 deviations from this among all the CRs in our sample, I conclude that this is likely a reasonable determiner (after all, I assume that some of the creatures in the sample are not at their correct CRs).

Now let's apply this to the astral constructs:

LV SD(HP) SD(AC) SD(Damage)     Sum
1   2.6      2.9      0.2             5.6
2   3.4      2.0      0.3             5.7
3   1.6      2.2      0.2             4.0
4   1.9      2.8      0.3             4.9
5   0.3      1.8      1.1             3.2
6  -0.4      2.4      0.2             2.2 
7  -0.1      2.2      0.2             2.2
8  -0.6      2.6      0.1             2.0
9   0.0      2.6      0.1             2.6

Now, if we increase the CRs for the LV 1-3 constructs, we get:

LV SD(HP) SD(AC) SD(Damage)     Sum
1   0.4      2.0     -0.1             2.3
2   1.1      1.2     -0.4             1.9
3   1.1      1.2     -0.4             1.9

As a quick double-check, if we pumped up the CR of the LV 1 construct to 2 (and LV4-> cr5 and LV5->CR7), we get:

LV SD(HP) SD(AC) SD(Damage)     Sum
1   -0.7      1.2     -0.6            -0.1
4   -0.9      1.5     -1.1            -0.5
5   -0.9      1.6     -0.5             0.2

These number are low for a battler, which suggests that they all should be one CR lower than we tested for.

Not yet started:
Astral Constructs w/ special abilities.