Psion power balance questions

[Plane Sailing]

A while ago I put together a list of special powers that could come from 3.5e summoned critters (it is much shorter than the 3.0 list!). Not prettily formatted, but perhaps helpful.

Summon Monster Special Powers
1st Level
Celestial dog
Celestial owl
Celestial giant fire beetle 10ft glow
Celestial porpoise1
Celestial badger
Celestial monkey
Fiendish dire rat
Fiendish raven
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium Poison DC10, 1d3 Dex
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small Poison DC12 1d2 Con
Fiendish hawk
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small
Fiendish octopus1
Fiendish snake, Small viper
2nd Level
Celestial giant bee
Celestial giant bombardier beetle
Celestial riding dog
Celestial eagle
Lemure (devil) see in darkness
Fiendish squid1
Fiendish wolf
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium DC13, 1d3 Con
Fiendish shark, Medium1
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium
Fiendish snake, Medium viper
3rd Level
Celestial black bear
Celestial bison
Celestial dire badger
Celestial hippogriff
Elemental, Small (any)
Fiendish ape
Fiendish dire weasel
Hell hound Scent, cone of fire, tracking
Fiendish snake, constrictor LE
Fiendish boar
Fiendish dire bat
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Huge
Fiendish crocodile
Dretch (demon) 1/day—scare (DC 12), stinking cloud (DC 13).
Fiendish snake, Large viper
Fiendish wolverine
4th Level
Archon, lantern Aid, detect evil, continual flame at will
Aura of menace, magic circle against evil, tongues
Celestial giant owl
Celestial giant eagle
Celestial lion
Air Mephit 1x Gust of wind @6th, DC14
Earth Mephit 1x soften earth and stone
Dust Mephit 1x windwall @6th, DC15
Fire Mephit 1x scorching ray @3rd
1x heat metal @6th DC14
Ice Mephit 1x magic missile @3rd
1x chill metal @6th DC14
Magma Mephit 1x pyrotechnics @3rd DC14
Ooze 1x acid arrow @3rd
1x stinking clout @6th, DC15
Salt 1x Glitterdust @3rd, DC14
1x 20ft radius dessicate, 2d8 DC14
Steam 1x 20ft radius boiling rainstorm, 2d6 DC14
Water 1x acid arrow @3rd
1x stinking cloud @6th DC15
Fiendish dire wolf
Fiendish giant wasp
Fiendish giant praying mantis
Fiendish shark, Large1
Yeth hound Baying, fly
Fiendish monstrous spider, Large Poison DC13, 1d6 Str
Fiendish snake, Huge viper
Howler Howl DC12
5th Level
Archon, hound Aid, continual flame, detect evil, message
Aura of menace, magic circle against evil, tongues
Celestial brown bear
Celestial giant stag beetle
Celestial sea cat1
Celestial griffon
Elemental, Medium (any)
Achaierai Black Cloud (2d6 + insanity) DC15
Devil, bearded
Fiendish deinonychus
Fiendish dire ape
Fiendish dire boar
Fiendish shark, Huge
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Large Poison DC 14 1d4 Con
Shadow mastiff
Fiendish dire wolverine
Fiendish giant crocodile
Fiendish tiger
6th Level
Celestial polar bear
Celestial orca whale1
Bralani (eladrin) At will— blur, charm person (DC 13), gust of wind (DC 14), mirror image, wind wall;
2/day—lightning bolt (DC 15), cure serious wounds (DC 15). Caster level 6th
tongues,
whirlwind blast
Celestial dire lion
Elemental, Large (any)
Janni (genie) 3/day—invisibility (self only), speak with animals. Caster level 12th. Once per day a janni can create food and water (caster level 7th) and can use ethereal jaunt (caster level 12th) for 1 hour
Chaos beast
Devil, chain Dancing chains
Xill
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Gargantuan
Fiendish rhinoceros
Fiendish elasmosaurus1
Fiendish monstrous spider, Huge Poison DC16, 1d8 Str
Fiendish snake, giant constrictor
7th Level
Celestial elephant
Avoral (guardinal) At will—aid, blur (self only), command (DC 14), detect magic, dimension door, dispel magic, gust of wind (DC 15), hold person (DC 16), light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, see invisibility;
3/day—lightning bolt (DC 16). Caster level 8th.
Lay on hands (66hp)
Speak with animals
True seeing

Celestial baleen whale1
Djinni (genie) At will—invisibility (self only); 1/day— create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. Once per day, a djinni can assume gaseous form (as the spell) for up to 1 hour. Caster level 20th
Elemental, Huge (any)
Invisible stalker
Devil, bone At will—dimensional anchor, fly, invisibility (self only), major image (DC 15), wall of ice. Caster level 12th
Fiendish megaraptor
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Huge Poison DC 18 1d6 Con
Babau (demon) At will—darkness, dispel magic, see invisibility
Fiendish giant octopus1
Fiendish girallon
8th Level
Celestial dire bear
Celestial cachalot whale1
Celestial triceratops
Lillend Typical Bard Spells Known (3/4/3; save DC 14 + spell level): 0— dancing lights, daze, detect magic, lullaby, mage hand, read magic; 1st— charm person, cure light wounds, identify, sleep; 2nd—hold person, invisibility, sound burst.
3/day—darkness, hallucinatory terrain (DC 18), knock, light; 1/day—charm person (DC 15), speak with animals, speak with plants. Caster level 10th.
Elemental, greater (any)
Fiendish giant squid1
Hellcat
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Colossal
Fiendish dire tiger
Fiendish monstrous spider, Gargantuan Poison DC20, 2d6 Str
Fiendish tyrannosaurus
Vrock (demon) At will—mirror image, telekinesis (DC 18),
1/day—heroism. Caster level 12th
Spores
Stunning Screech DC22
9th Level
Couatl Psionics (Sp): At will—detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 15), invisibility, plane shift (DC 20), polymorph (self only). Effective caster level 9th.
Typical Spells Known (6/7/7/7/4; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—cure minor wounds, daze, disrupt undead, light, obscuring mist, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1st—endure elements, mage armor, protection from chaos, true strike, wind wall; 2nd—cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, scorching ray, silence; 3rd—gaseous form, magic circle against evil, summon monster III; 4th— charm monster, freedom of movement.
Leonal (guardinal) At will—detect thoughts, fireball (DC 15), hold monster (DC 17), polymorph, wall of force;
3/day—cure critical wounds (DC 16), neutralize poison, remove disease; 1/day—heal (DC 18). Caster level 10th
Roar (holy word) 3/day
Lay on hands (114hp)
Protective Aura 20ft radius (+4 deflection, +4 resistance & lesser globe)
Celestial roc
Elemental, elder (any)
Devil, barbed At will—hold person (DC 16), major image (DC 17), scorching ray (2 rays only).
1/day—order’s wrath (DC 18), unholy blight (DC 18). Caster level 12th
Fiendish dire shark1
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Gargantuan Poison DC23 1d8 Con
Night hag At will—detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, magic missile, polymorph (self only), ray of enfeeblement (DC 12), sleep (DC 12). Caster level 8th
Bebilith (demon) Poison, rend armour, web
Fiendish monstrous spider, Colossal Poison DC28 2d8 Str
Hezrou (demon) At will—chaos hammer (DC 18), unholy blight (DC 18);
3/day—blasphemy (DC 21), gaseous form. Caster level 13th
Stench DC24

 

[Plane Sailing]

I might mention that another big advantage the druid has as a summoner is that once he has a few creatures summoned he can use the super-buffer "animal growth", which gives a huge bonus to all his summoned animals. I don't think that the psion has a similar capability (ecto puppet is far weaker, for instance)

Cheers

 

[Dinkeldog]

Plane Sailing, you might want to modify your list somewhat. In general, the abilities that I end up putting on my constructs are Trip, Fly, and (once) Improved Bull's Rush (vs. archers on a balcony).

Wolves get Trip, and any of the birds get a much better Fly speed than the 20' movement of the constructs. Now that the I-VIII constructs get only a single ability, rather than multiples, those power additions are much more valuable, as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now that the I-VIII constructs get only a single ability, rather than multiples, those power additions are much more valuable, as well.

4th through 6th level Constructs can have their single B menu abilities replaced with 2 A menu abilities.

7th through 8th level Constructs can have their single C menu abilities replaced with 2 B menu abilities, or 1 B and 2 A, or 4 A.

Granted, the lesser abilities are often not as good, but sometimes they are more versatile. In any case, they do give the psionic character more options.

Plus, many psions who bother to take Astral Construct might often take Boost Construct for an additional menu ability.


Finally, all constructs get abilities that many summoned creatures do not have:

1) Higher AC
2) Darkvision
3) Construct Immunities
4) Low light vision

 

[Scion]

1) Higher AC
2) Darkvision
3) Construct Immunities
4) Low light vision

Sure, they tend to have better AC. Probably because they are more for direct melee than summons. So it makes sense.

As for darkvision and lowlight vision, how many creatures on the summon monster lists dont hvae both? Basically I think it is the elementals, who still have darkvision.

For summon natures ally they tend to only have one or the other (animals lowlight, elementals darkvision) but sometimes get more powerful options faster as a tradeoff.

Constuct immunities vs generally much higher saves, SR, and a larger array of special abilities.

If that is the full list of problem areas then I'd have to say that proves constructs are a pretty good way towards being balanced.

Which means that I expect someone has a longer list.

 

[Plane Sailing]

1) Higher AC
2) Darkvision
3) Construct Immunities
4) Low light vision

not forgetting

5) ignore Protection from Evil (a big one IMO)

 

[Scion]

From another thread:

We have a Druid "summoner" in our group (he's got augment summon) and we did some comparisons of our different level summons ... this was our conclusion:


- level 1-4 ... constructs win out simply because the druid hasn't got many options at those levels, and the constructs are "too beefy" in comparison.
- sometimes the druid's critters would win (esp pounce) as they had enough attacks and enough damage to pop the construct on a couple lucky hits ..
- the druid choosing to summond d4+1 wolves is going to give the level 3 construct a run for his money ... (we did it .. turned out pretty fair .. 50:50 chance either way ..)
- At the level 5-7 range, the druid's summons start to overpower the constructs ... seriously ... again we had Augment summon on the druid .. and I only had 1 boost construct feat ... it didn't make up for it, trust me ..
- At level 7-9 .. the constructs took over again ...
- mind you, his level 6 summon (Huge Earth Elemental - I believe? or is that Level 7 summon?) is owning my constructs at this point ...
- I finally got level 8 constructs, and the last time we played, I summoned one with Constrict, spikes, extra attack, etc ... and he turned 2 casters into mush in 1 round ..

but again ... we're not finding it possible for our "summons/constructs" to keep pace with the fighters in our group.

I think that one issue here is the notion of a “cleric summoner” ... are we talking about a cleric who chose summoning related domains and feats to specialize in this or are we talking about a generalist cleric who likes to summon things but isn’t really doing anything to specialize in this?

Did he take advantage of any of the feats that would make this a good build? Domain Spontaneity so he could convert his prepared spells into summoning spells or Spontaneous Summoner? Rapid Spell so that he could do a prepared summons as a standard action? Divine Metamagic so that he could quicken or persist his summons easily? Augment Summoning & Spell Focus Conjuration for beefier summoned creatures? Any of the splatbook summoning feats?

Did he take any caster friendly summoning PrCs like Thaumaturgist?

Let’s use a non-human Cleric 7 / Thaumaturgist 2 with the Summoning and Animal domains and feat selection of Spell Focus (Conjuration), Domain Spontaneity, Rapid Spell, and Spontaneous Summoner. He can prepare any spell he wants and then spontaneously sub it out for a Summon Nature’s Ally or Cure spell for free. He can burn a turn undead attempt to sub out a prepared spell for a Summon Monster spells. He can prepare Rapid Summon Monster spells in his domain slots. He will have full casting to boot.

I have a hard time seeing how a pure Shaper or Wilder could easily match this guy let alone the 9th level egoist/slayer you posted ... and this is without using more than one Complete Book or any of the powerful splatbook feats.

But I digress. Let’s assume that the Egoist/Slayer is paired with an unspecialized cleric who has the either the Summoning domain and no summoning feats or the Animal Domain with Spontaneous Summoner but *none* of the other feats mentioned above. Neither the psion or the cleric character is an “optimized” summoner but both have options. If one looks strictly at who has the best “combat” creature ability then I think that the highest level Astral Construct is probably going to look better most of the time ... but there will be major exceptions. 1d4+1 Celestial Dire Badgers is going to be hard for the 4th level construct to cope with I the other dire creatures are not bad. From the nature side a large earth elemental is going to be tough. However in addition to raw combat power there will be things like summoning unicorns to heal the party and such on the magic side.

However there is something else to consider and that it Construct level vs Summons level. The unoptimized Cleric “summoner” above is probably only going to be able to pump out 1 to 3 of his “max level” summons V spells. After that he is going to be casing summon IVs, IIIs, IIs, & Is. The Psion gets to summon level 4 constructs every time if he cares to spend the PP. However where THAT gets us is into the debate about encounters per day and managing PP. In some games, depending on DM style, this could be an issue ... but note that it’s not an issue with the construct it’s an issue of the DM running a game in such a way that favors the psion.

Finally there are the fighters. Let’s ignore constructs for a moment. Should a 9th level caster be able to beat a 9th level fighter? The DnD game favors the fighter at lower levels but the caster types really start shining more and more starting about 7th level or so IMO. Does it really matter if the fighter is getting shown up by an empowered fireball, dominate person spell, polymorph/metamorph, or summons? The bottom line is that a caster / manifester *should* be able to pull some serious stuff by 9th level.

I’ll grant you that the CR on the Astral Constructs seems to be off but it doesn’t seem out of the range of your typical DnD game that a caster type should be able to summon something that could, in some respects, equal the fighter for a short period. Regardless though I have yet to see a construct that could match an unspecialized fighter for potential damage output let alone something like a charging barbarian build. So, no matter how high the construct’s AC or HP, the fighter going to have better damage output and likely have more combat tactical ability too from his feats. It’s not that the constructs are bad, it’s just that a fighter can be a lot better at things that are actually useful in mid to high level combat.

Where the psion is going to have an advantage tactically with the constructs is their flexibility. Need a tripper? Blammo. The construct will not be nearly as good as a decent fighter tripper but that might not matter if your fighter can’t trip. In this respect the psion has more reactive ability but the fighter still has more proative ability. It just means that a fighter has to plan his level-ups and feat choices carefully thus making sure that he stays useful to the party as a whole. IMO he should be doing this anyway even if constructs were not in the picture. Adding them just puts a little more pressure on him.

If I were playing a rogue, fighter, or barbarian type with an astral construct capable psion in the party what I would do is get together with him to come up with combos that we could use. Figure out what constructs he could summon to work with my character to make the entire party that much better. For instance a trip construct would be a godsend to a rogue. The Barbarian might want a grappler to keep his foe in place. The fighter might want a close range melee construct to guard him while he uses a reach weapon like the spiked chain.

Instead of just trying to bowl over his foes with constructs the psion suddenly becomes a party enabler and the whole group can be more effective. Maybe the psion *could* have taken out the entire group of foes by himself in 7 rounds while using 40 PP ... but working with the party maybe the fight could last 3 rounds use only 16 PP and require less healing afterwards from the cleric.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plane Sailing, you might want to modify your list somewhat. In general, the abilities that I end up putting on my constructs are Trip, Fly, and (once) Improved Bull's Rush (vs. archers on a balcony).

I'd not bothered with feats, other abilities etc. My idea at the time was to see what additional spells a sorcerer could gain access to by summoning appropriate creatures - so I was concentrating on the supernatural and spell like abilities plus poison. A fuller list is left as an exercise for the reader...

Cheers

 

[Scion]

not forgetting

5) ignore Protection from Evil (a big one IMO)

Isnt protection from evil one of those spells which is insanely powerful for its level?

Failing that however, good summoned creatures are immune, if the protected creature attacks or tries to move against the summon then the benefit is gone, plus summon monsters tend to have SR anyway which can negate the protection.

I suppose that if we enforce the material component it also becomes impossible to cast in most battles..lol

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, I suppose a weakness of astral constructs that I don't think I've seen mentioned here yet, is that minor globe of invulnerability hedges out all of them - even the 9th level uber-constructs.

Of course, the static nature of the GoI doesn't help it much, and some of the changed wording in 3.5e might reduce its usability since they introduced some ambiguity about pre-cast spells, but...

(of course, I'd still like to see a 1st level equivalent spell to protect against them though!)

Cheers