Psion power balance questions

[KarinsDad]

Very interesting comparison! I wonder what happens, though, if you have the fire elemental fight using its feats. That is, what if every round, it spring-attacks the fighter?

This is useful because of its 15' reach and combat reflexes. It can blammo the fighter and retreat 10'. At that point, the fighter either needs to step forward 10' to attack (incurring an AoO and getting only a single attack), retreat 10' to missile-attack or drink a potion (incurring an AoO and getting only a single attack/standard action), or stand in place and missile-fire (incurring multiple AoO, if I understand combat reflexes).

Most likely, the fighter will run forward, meaning that the elemental gets two attacks at full attack bonus each round compared to the fighter's one. The fighter is therefore doing 15.2 points of damage each round to the elemental, taking about 14 rounds to wipe it out.

Also, did you include the elementals' Dodge feat in your analysis, and did you include the elemental's burn ability? I'm not sure.

Good points all.

Course, the Astral Construct has 15 feet reach too and can take the Spring Attack feat instead of the 30 extra hit points and still be a greater threat to the Fighter because the Fighter rarely hits him whereas the Fighter often hits the Elemental.

 

[Pielorinho]

Ooh, interesting. So if I'm following the analysis correctly, the fighter who gets one full attack per round, doing 55% of 26 points of damage or 14.3 points, takes 10-11 rounds to wipe out the construct; this is 3-4 rounds fewer than it took him to wipe out the elemental.

Also, I'm not sure if your analysis took into account either the dodge feat or the burn ability of the elemental.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Ooh, interesting. So if I'm following the analysis correctly, the fighter who gets one full attack per round, doing 55% of 26 points of damage or 14.3 points, takes 10-11 rounds to wipe out the construct; this is 3-4 rounds fewer than it took him to wipe out the elemental.

Also, I'm not sure if your analysis took into account either the dodge feat or the burn ability of the elemental.

+1 to AC is going to make a big difference here?

Actually, a smart Psion is going to give the Astral Construct Extreme Deflection and Constrict Ability (i.e. Improved Grab) in a Astral Construct vs. Fighter duel and the Astral Construct is going to kill the Fighter and only take a few points of damage in return since the grapple of the Astral Construct is 38. The Fighter's only hope is a Ring of Free Movement (or allies or magic of some type).

None of the Elementals have this. Nor can they start a grapple too easily because the Fighter has a 95% chance of hitting them and preventing the Grapple (which is a good reason for the Fighter to not use a Bow against them).

So yes, the Astral Construct can be a very overwhelming (one might say unbalanced) opponent if the Psion picks the proper abilities for the situation.

 

[Scion]

Depends on whether the DM allows conversation between turns, or only on turns. The former sometimes allows for more options.

since the rules say you can talk as a free action even when it isnt your turn....

Course, this can backfire too if the enemies realize that the Summoned Creature is telling everything it hears. My intelligent NPCs would jump all over this and put out false information.

If having out my archon forces the enemy to such drastic measures then the summon is worth its weight in gold no matter what else it does. Disrupting communication either by letting you know what they are up to or by forcing them to say things they dont actually mean.. priceless.

 

[KarinsDad]

since the rules say you can talk as a free action even when it isnt your turn....

It's DM dependent.

PHB page 144

"In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character cannot speak when flatfooted (and thus can't warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that, your DM may require that you to take a move action or even a full-round action."

This is what I do in my game. The reason I do it is because I do not want instantaneous knowledge across the map.

For example, if one PC makes a Spellcraft roll to know what a spell is, s/he cannot communicate that until his/her next turn. This prevents other characters from acting on that knowledge when their next turn comes up (in the case where the secondary characters have an init before the one who made the Spellcraft roll).

I just like the sense of "realism" with this rule as opposed to everyone being all knowledgeable all of the time.

 

[Scion]

And that still means that the archon could talk on 'its' turn without penalty. So, no big deal either way, it just depends on what tactics would do what and when. But, it is still an invaluable tool.

 

[Scion]

For comparisons at this level how about the Leonal? He is a pretty cool little guy.

Leonal medium outsider (extraplanar, good)
HP: 114
Speed: 60'
AC: 27 (+3 dex, +14 natural armor)
BAB/Grapple: +12/+20
Full attack: 2 claws +20 (d6+8), bite +15 (d8+4)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Roar, Pounce, Improved Grab, rake d6+8, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: DR 10/evil and silver, darkvision 60', immunity to electricity and petrification, lay on hands, lowlight vision, protective aura, Resistane to cold and sonic 10, speak with animals, SR 28
Saves: F +13 (+17 vs poison), R +11, W +10
Stats: Str 27, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Skills: Balance +22, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +4, Hide +22, Intimidate +10, Jump +35, Knowledge (any) +17, Listen +17, Move Silently +22, Sense Motive +17, Spot +17, Survival +17
Feats: Ability Focus (roar), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Track
Roar (Su): A leonal can roar up to three times per day. Each roar releases a blast in a 60-foot cone that duplicates the effects of a holy word spell and deals an extra 2d6 points of sonic damage (Fortitude DC 20 negates). The save DC is Charisma-based.
Pounce (Ex): If a leonal charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leonal must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +20 melee, damage 1d6+8.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect thoughts, fireball (DC 15), hold monster (DC 17), polymorph, wall of force; 3/day—cure critical wounds (DC 16), neutralize poison, remove disease; 1/day—heal (DC 18). Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Lay on Hands (Su): As the paladin class feature, except that each day, a leonal can heal an amount of damage equal to its full normal hit points.
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the leonal. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals leonal’s HD). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in a leonal’s statistics block.)
Speak with Animals (Su): This ability works like speak with animals (caster level 8th) but is a free action and does not require sound.
Skills: Leonals have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks.

He is pretty cool. Definately not as much damage but he has a lot of defensive abilities and a host of specials.

A large number of skills for when those come into play, faster movement, lower hp, lower normal AC although higher touch AC (although against evil opponents it is about the same on normal and way higher in touch), less attack bonus and damage but one more attack (two while pouncing), nearly unbeatable DR, good elemental resistance overall, SR of 28 can even hinder 20th level casters on occasion, better saves but lesser immunities in general, useful feats, and some very interesting specials indeed..

When he gets close to dieing the first time he can either drop a heal or a lay on hands (heal is 100hp, lay on hands is 114hp) to get back up to full.. and then again later.

Wall of force at will? great combat control! Hold monster at will? ouch.

Roar 3 times per day in a 60' cone? Ok, not so impressive, especially without knowing for sure what level it is used at.. although the assumption would be 10.. I guess it could take out grunts like no ones business, but the fireball at will could do that too.


While not as good of a straight up bruiser as the astral construct this guy simply has incredible amounts of power and versitility. This guy is simply incredible.

 

[KarinsDad]

And that still means that the archon could talk on 'its' turn without penalty. So, no big deal either way, it just depends on what tactics would do what and when. But, it is still an invaluable tool.

Useful, yes. Invaluable, probabaly not. And, which rule you use determines what is allowed to occur in the game.

If PCs and NPCs can only talk on their turn, they cannot use information given to them by the summoned archon until their next turn.

If PCs and NPCs can talk anytime they want, the Archon can relay the information immediately when the NPC says it. Any PC whose init occurs before the Archons could then act upon that information immediately, they would not have to wait a turn.

For example, an init order of:

PC1, NPC1, PC2, NPC2, Archon, PC3, PC4

If NPC1 says something on his turn and you allow talking out of turn, then the Archon could relay that information immediately and PC2 could use it immediately on his turn after NPC1.

If you do not do allow talkng out of turn, then NPC2 (presumably who speaks the same language as NPC1) first gets to use the info, then the Archon, then PC3, etc. PC2 would be last to be able to use the information.

 

[Scion]

Useful, yes. Invaluable, probabaly not.

Having information mostly for free as a side effect of a different spell being cast which can also do other things? Definately invaluable. Information is one of the most powerful items out there.

Tactics take time to call out and to take into action. Unless your dm has all of the bad guys be telepathic and perfectly coordinated then this ability can come in handy anytime there is a language out there that one of the pc's doesnt already speak.. and sometimes even then, because then you have multiple points in the initiative order where the information may be relayed.

 

[KarinsDad]

Having information mostly for free as a side effect of a different spell being cast which can also do other things? Definately invaluable. Information is one of the most powerful items out there.

The word invaluable means priceless. It means that the information is so valuable that you cannot calculate the value.

Knowing that someone is going to flank you doesn't mean much if you do not get your action before that happens. Knowing that someone is going to flank you doesn't mean anything, zip, ziltch, nada, if nobody on your team gets their action before that happens unless they have an immediate action they can do.

So, even having knowledge of this nature doesn't guarantee that you can actually use it. Hence, it might be useful, it is rarely invaluable. Once in a blue moon it will be invaluable. Sometimes it will be useful. Sometimes, it will be useless.

Tactics take time to call out and to take into action. Unless your dm has all of the bad guys be telepathic and perfectly coordinated then this ability can come in handy anytime there is a language out there that one of the pc's doesnt already speak.. and sometimes even then, because then you have multiple points in the initiative order where the information may be relayed.

And because tactics take time to call out and to take into action is the precise reason why having an ally (or summoned creature) able to speak a language that most or all of the PCs cannot speak is more useful if the DM allows talking between turns than if he does not.