Psion power balance questions

Zimbel said:
So overall, I'd agree that their CR is probably somewhat low.
Let's compare Astral Construct to the average of all monsters. We'll start with AC and hp....I'm afraid I've run out of time today to format the Atk bonuses and the average damage per round to an AC typical of their EL. Someone else want to post those? :)

Code:
      Core      Astral                 Core      Astral
     Monster   Construct              Monster   Construct
CR     AC         AC                    hp         hp
1/2    15         18                     6         15
1      15         18                    12         31
2      16         20                    20         36
3      16         22                    26         47
5      18         23                    55         68
7      18         25                    87         85
8      20         27                    96        101
9      21         29                   131        118
10     21         33                   129        144
 

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We've recently started playing a campaign based on a challenge from our DM, who was interested in an all arcane caster game. The challenge was basically to play with a highly unbalanced party, in which no one could play a melee combat oriented character, nor could anyone play a divine magic based character. Everyone had to be a "primary caster" focused on dealing damage.

We've got two psions, a sorceror, and (yours truly) a wizard based arcane trickster.

I think it will be an interesting campaign to test out the different sides of the argument of this thread, though it may be a year before we've reached a firm conclusion.

At this point, I expect to find that psions and sorcerors simply have different strengths. Focusing on the strengths of the psions and paying little attention to their weaknesses will give an inflated impression of their power on paper.

Theory: I think mages are more efficient than psions, but that psions can do better burst damage.

Let's compare some spells to powers.

Comparison 1
Spell: Orb of Acid -- ranged touch for 1d8 damage + 1d8 per 2 levels, max 5d8; no save, no SR. [Bread and butter for an Arcane Trickster as you can sneak attack with it, which is neither here nor there for most....]

Power: Energy Touch -- ranged touch for 1d6+1 fire or cold damage (or slightly different electric or sonic damage); no save, but SR applies. For every additional power point, add another d6+1 damage.

Comparison: 1d8=1d6+1 on average, so at level 1 damage is equivalent. As the level rises, the psion will need to spend more power to keep up with the damage, so that at level 9 the psion will need to expend 5 power points (the equivalent of a 3rd level spell) to do what I can do with a first. The psion has a significant flexibility advantage, but not needing to worry about SR isn't shabby.

Comparison 2
Spell: Fireball -- d6 per level fire damage up to 10d6 in a 20' radius burst. [Bread and butter for arcane casters everywhere.]

Power: Energy Missiles -- 3d6+3 fire or cold damage +1d6+1 per additional power point, which also increases the save DC by 1. Less damage if used with electricity or sonic.

Comparison: Energy missile is available earlier to Kinetisists, but is so nice that many other psions will spend a feat to get it at about 6th level. At 5th level, the wizard does 5d6 fire damage. At 5th level, a psion does 5d6+5 fire or cold damage for an equivalent cost, and has a save dc 1 higher than the equivalent mage. At 10th level, the mage does 10d6 damage, and for an equivalent cost the psion is still doing the same 5d6+5. If he's feels the need, however, the psion can (for the equivalent cost of more than a 5th level spell) deal 10d6+10 damage and gain a whopping 6 point higher save DC than the mage's fireball. The saving throw bonus is the psions most impressive advantage here.

The targets effected are different, of course, and with tightly packed opponents the mage will effect more than the psion. Usually, in my experience, enemies will spread out, minimizing this advantage. The psion can also use energy missiles without fear of bringing down "friendly fire" on an ally in melee range of his targets, and gains a tremendous benefit against creatures with evasion in that he can switch the saving throw type to fortitude and negate that ability. The ability to choose which energy type to use on the fly is also a fantastic benefit.

Overall, this comparison is highly in favor of the psion. Note, however, that unless the psion happens to be a kinetisist, this power cost a feat. At the risk of complicating the comparison, let's assume the mage spent the feat on empower spell. At 10th level, an empowered fireball does 10d6*1.5 damage, comparing favorably to the psions 10d6+10, and is still less expensive to cast than the psions augmented power.

Comparison 3
Meteor Swarm: 24d6 area fire damage, plus up to 8d6 impact damage. Primary target can be deprived of saving throw if ranged touch attacks are succesfull. SR applies, and fire resistance applies at 4x the normal amount. Spheres can be dispersed, which might be helpfull if you are fighting some huge horde of weak enemies.

Tornado Blast: 17d6 area damage, plus up to 8d6 impact damage. Neither SR nor fire resistance applies. Opponents get thrown about.

Comparison: Tornado blast has some nice advantages, especially against fire resistant or power resistant enemies. It does, however, suffer a bit in terms of pure damage output, and depriving your opponent of a saving throw can potentially be a big plus for meteor swarm. Note that while Tornado Blast can be augmented, it's capped at the same damage as meteor swarm, and the psion needs caster level 24 in order to get there. Should those conditions be met, the psion also gains +3 to his DC, but at the equivalent cost of casting a 13th level spell.
 

Ot

Lord Pendragon said:
Zimbel, I'm only just barely familiar with psionics, but I would like to comment on one point:It's been my experience over the years on these boards that neither Karinsdad nor Elder-Basilisk are the type of poster to state erroneous or misleading information, or speak about what they do not know. Both of them are extremely capable analysts with regards to a myriad aspects of the game. If I had to make a list of folks I'd trust on these boards to give me objective info on some aspect of the game I knew nothing about, they'd be on it.

Just wanted to give you some perspective, since by your post-count I'm not sure how often you read the boards. ;)
I'm also capable of analysis (real and complex to be specific). I've also helped teach the subject. ;-)

I did not mention it in my initial post, but I'm actually looking for enough information to determine if any of the powers my PC has or is planning to choose warrent formal analysis or further research to determine their power. Since the objective is to make my choice to be a Psion easier on the DM, and I have no concern that I'll be "underpowered" in what will likely be within a few months a 1-major spellcaster party (my PC), I'm really only targetting the ones that I think may be too strong. This thread has (so far) helped immensely in reducing the list down to a managable size.

As for how long I've been on these boards, I was far more active back at Eric Noah's website. My user name was likely the same.
 
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@ Nail

There is one thing I don't like in your table. You're comparing the best and only creatures a Psion could summon to something that's only average.
How about comparing it with the best a Druid/Cleric/Wizard could summon at equal cost in pp/spell slots?

10th
 

Psion vs Arcanw

Patlin said:
Theory: I think mages are more efficient than psions, but that psions can do better burst damage.
My opinion:
1) Depending on the sources you allow, either can be substantially stronger (1.e. 1+ orders of power) than the other.
2) Even in core, metamagic rods are nice; they can easily tip the balance once they're obtainable/makable, and by core, they are not usable by Psions.
3) Note that the metamagic rules are not identicle to the metapsionic rules. Metapsionics is harder to stack, cuts into augmentation, and is not costed in the same way.
 

Nail said:
Let's compare Astral Construct to the average of all monsters. We'll start with AC and hp....I'm afraid I've run out of time today to format the Atk bonuses and the average damage per round to an AC typical of their EL. Someone else want to post those? :)
I'd love to help, but I'm unclear as to how you're getting your data; is this SRD creatures, creatures from MM1, or from some other source or combination of sources? I'm assuming that by "average" you mean "arithmetic mean" (i.e. the sum of the numbers divided by the number of numbers)? I'm also puzzled as to what an average of all creatures is supposed to proove- I'd think that you'd want to first filter for front-line battlers (which these constructs appear to be), and then take an average (mean for HP/ average damage per round, mode for AC/attack bonus).
 

Zimbel said:
My opinion:
3) Note that the metamagic rules are not identicle to the metapsionic rules. Metapsionics is harder to stack, cuts into augmentation, and is not costed in the same way.

Well, yes and no.

Although it is true that metapsionics cuts into the augmentation, there are some balancing factors that allow this to not be an issue:

1) Metapsionics can be spontaneously used. Metamagic can only be spontaneously used by a Sorcerer or Bard, not any of the other spell casting classes.

2) Spells tend to have a damage cap whereas psionic augmentation does not. This is a pro and a con. The 10th level caster can do 10 D6 Empowered with a 5th level slot. The 10th level Psion can only do (without a manifester level boost) 8D6 Empowered, but this is often 8D6+8. However, the 12th level caster can only still do a 10D6 Empowered spell, whereas the 12th level Psion can do a 10D6 Empowered power as well, again often 10D6+10. Advantage: Psion.

3) Spells with a save have a set DC. Psionic augmentation does not just increase the results of the power, it also increases the DC if it is a power with a save.

4) There are a limited number of higher level spell slots available for metamagic. Hence, a psion can typically do higher level metapsionics more times per day.

5) A psion can do a manifester level boost (i.e. overchannel). A wilder can do a surge.


Typically, the Psion has the advantage with damaging powers. The spellcasters have the advantage with some other metamagics.
 

Nail said:
Let's compare Astral Construct to the average of all monsters. We'll start with AC and hp....I'm afraid I've run out of time today to format the Atk bonuses and the average damage per round to an AC typical of their EL. Someone else want to post those? :)

I've noticed that Druids seem to get better combat-capable summoned creatures than wizards do; it might be worth specifically comparing the best available for them. e.g.

Code:
4TH-LEVEL ASTRAL CONSTRUCT
 	Medium Construct
Hit Dice:	5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative:	+2
Speed:	40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:	22 (+2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 12, flatfooted 20
Base Attack/Grapple:	+5/+10
Attack:	Slam +10 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack:	Slam +10 melee (1d6+10)
Space/Reach:	5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:	—
Special Qualities:	One ability from Menu B, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves:	Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities:	Str 25, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10
(assuming Improved Grab from Menu B

vs a favourite grappler from Summon Natures Ally 4

Code:
CROCODILE, GIANT
 	Huge Animal
Hit Dice:	7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative:	+1
Speed:	20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class:	16 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple:	+5/+21
Attack:	Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12)
Full Attack:	Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12)
Space/Reach:	15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:	Improved grab
Special Qualities:	Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves:	Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities:	Str 27, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills:	Hide +1*, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +16
Feats:	Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide)
Environment:	Warm marshes
Organization:	Solitary or colony (6–11)
Challenge Rating:	4
Advancement:	8–14 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:	—
These huge creatures usually live in salt water and can be more than 20 feet long.
Giant crocodiles fight and behave like their smaller cousins.

Both can be affected by Augment Summoning I believe, so we might was well leave that out of the equation. Looking at the two the croc has slightly more hp, much worse AC, better roll to hit, much better damage plus the advantage of reach and a truly frightening grapple tied to its improved grab.

So in this simplistic case at 4th level I'd go with the druids ally over the astral construct for raw combat power.

I'm not saying that astral construct isn't great - it surely is, especially with all the customisation options. Druids have some combat monsters available to them though!

Cheers
 

Zimbel said:
is this SRD creatures, creatures from MM1, or from some other source or combination of sources?
Core: i.e. MMI
Zimbel said:
I'm assuming that by "average" you mean "arithmetic mean"
Yup. And I left off the St. Dev. numbers too. Sorry 'bout that.
Zimbel said:
I'd think that you'd want to first filter for front-line battlers...
That would also be helpful.....although at low CR (up to CR 4), the differences would be small.
 

Zimbel said:
More targets, primarily - a lot more targets (any number of creatures within 60' of each other). I'ts wonderful against minor creatures, since like Energy Missile, you can miss your allies, and evasion isn't a problem. It also gets around many immunities- and the ones it dosen't are usually pretty easy to discern.

OK. The number of targets is an advantage. I don't think it's a huge advantage, however, because in my experience, you very rarely fight tons of weak creatures... and when you do, there are lots and lots of things that work on them.

I don't however, think that evasion not being a problem is really an advantage that horrid wilting has over energy missile. If evasion is likely to be a problem, a psion can simply use the cold version and make it a fort save. However, if massive fort save is more likely to be a problem (as it often is), the psion can also do reflex. I would think that the fort save would be a problem for horrid wilting at least as often as it is an advantage. Psions get to choose their advantage.

I'd also agree that horrid wilting evades immunities which is good--but as I pointed out in the last post, most immunities are really only resist 10, so in a lot of cases, energy missile will blow through the resists and still do more damage. On the whole, however, this is probably only a problem for wilders. Psions, like wizards have enough knowledge skills that they should be able to figure out immunities even where they aren't obvious.

So, I'd say an augmented th level equivalent energy missile stacks up very well to horrid wilting even if we assume roughly the same save DC (using Piratecat (and Living Arcanis's) DC fix for the +1DC/pp augmentation powers). With the written DC, I'd say energy missile blows horrid wilting away.
 
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