Psion power balance questions

[KarinsDad]

Are you making him roll his psi-craft check every time he tries to bypass the barrier? The DC is a 20. Also, are you talking about a kineticist capable of casting 8th level powers? I find it hard to believe that monsters that are an appropriate challenge for such a high level caster are unable to deal with the spell, considering that it only takes a targeted dispel magic to get rid of the thing. And yeah, why wouldn't the monsters be smart enough at that level to break off, figure out how to deal with the sphere and then come back with the appropriate counter measure?

DC 20 doesn't mean anything at 15th+ level.

Personally, I would just nuke the feat completely from the game because it is obviously broken in this combination.

Since he has been using it for so long, the way to nuke it is to bump the DC up to 20 + the number of Power Points he is putting through the force effect. Ditto for normal walls (DC 10 + hardness + 1/foot of thickness + PP). The more power he is shunting through, the more likely he wastes his power. Low level stuff should be almost automatically get through if he has a high PsiCraft skill. High level stuff should be a lot more problematic.

No other class really can cast through solid materials at will.

This is straight out broken and should be fixed by the DM.

It's amazing how often you can find an overly effective combination in the XPH.

 

[Scion]

Are you making him roll his psi-craft check every time he tries to bypass the barrier? The DC is a 20. Also, are you talking about a kineticist capable of casting 8th level powers? I find it hard to believe that monsters that are an appropriate challenge for such a high level caster are unable to deal with the spell, considering that it only takes a targeted dispel magic to get rid of the thing. And yeah, why wouldn't the monsters be smart enough at that level to break off, figure out how to deal with the sphere and then come back with the appropriate counter measure?

I agree with your assessment, but note that it is dc 10 + hardness + thickness in feet (min 1) so since this is a force effect it is dc 31.

Which isnt necessarily automatic even at level 20 and it still requires a lot of other resources spent. At level 15 one can have spent up to 18 points in psicraft, and maybe have a 30 int if he really tries for it (start 18, +3 level, +6 enhancement item, +3 inherant, which uses up most of his money and point buy points generally and all level stat increases), for a 10% chance to lose his power each time.

Spending a lot of pp and making yourself nearly immobile and reducing the effectiveness of your powers and requiring having a couple of extra feats spent (psychic meditation for one, burrowing power for another which is usually not helpful), and giving yourself a pretty decent chance to lose the power you are manifesting entirely.. yeah, that sounds like an 'overpowered' combination to me ;/ Especially at this high level where no monsters have any useful abilities.. such as going around a nontransparent corner.

 

[Psion]

Zimbel, I'm only just barely familiar with psionics, but I would like to comment on one point:It's been my experience over the years on these boards that neither Karinsdad nor Elder-Basilisk are the type of poster to state erroneous or misleading information, or speak about what they do not know. Both of them are extremely capable analysts with regards to a myriad aspects of the game.

I would generally have to agree. I know some posters here rail about things about psionics that really don't amount to anything in actual play, but I'd have to say that some folks on the WotC psionics forums are the other extreme and are too forgiving about genuine problems that psionics has. I think for the most part Karinsdad's analysis is pretty good. I think I'd put dispel psionics in the same category he (and I) puts energy missile: it's probably a matter of mismatch between the words and the intention. I do think that the hubbub over psychic reformation is overdone. I had an NPC in the party that offered to use the ability for the players, and it did not have a negative effect on play.

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree with your assessment, but note that it is dc 10 + hardness + thickness in feet (min 1) so since this is a force effect it is dc 31.

Opps. Missed that. I too mis-read it and instantly thought DC 20.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Nail]

IWhich isnt necessarily automatic even at level 20 and it still requires a lot of other resources spent. At level 15 one can have spent up to 18 points in psicraft, and

...and he has a magic item enhances his skill. It's cheap, and so the Psion in question automatically makes every concentration roll he needs to. Heck, he's been doing that since level 12.

Still, next time I get the chance I'll look over his skill modifiers again, as well as the DC for manifesting thru the sphere.

Spending a lot of pp and making yourself nearly immobile and reducing the effectiveness of your powers and requiring having a couple of extra feats spent (psychic meditation for one, burrowing power for another which is usually not helpful), ....

You are simply wrong, Scion. He's not immobile (Telekinetic Sphere). And since the sphere completely protects him he actually has more PP to spend! Finally, the feat Burrowing Power is amazingly helpful....since the Psion uses the sphere every encounter.

How is a feat that's used every encounter "usually not helpful"?

 

[Nail]

As I read over that last post, allow me to soften the tone a little. I do value the advice I receive here, especially from those that love psions.

....even if the advice is posted on ENWorld, which is apparently known to "misrepresent" psions....

 

[Scion]

...and he has a magic item enhances his skill. It's cheap, and so the Psion in question automatically makes every concentration roll he needs to. Heck, he's been doing that since level 12.

which means that he has even more resources spent for this goal. I am unsure what lengths people have to go to before something can be done. There are definately times when some people simply call for too much sacrifice for not enough gain.

You are simply wrong, Scion.

Not if you use the powers and feats as written. But if you are changing them somehow then it is beyond the scope of my arguements.

He's not immobile (Telekinetic Sphere).

'nearly immobile' != 'immobile'.

Spending a standard action to move 30' which is also limited to the size of the space you are trying to move through I think makes the 'nearly immobile' comment very appropriate.

If you move in a round then you dont get any other abilities most of the time, if your foe goes through a door (or portal smaller than the size of the sphere) then they are out of your reach

And since the sphere completely protects him he actually has more PP to spend!

he is protected from 'charge!' type creatures. Quite often stoneskin alone is good enough to seriously impact the amount of damage coming in and it is much easier to cast and it doesnt have any of the other drawbacks.

Or even iron body. If you plan ahead for it all spells you plan on casting can have no somatic component (+1 spell level = +2 pp, but without the focus problem and the added benefit of being useful in other situations where somatic might be a problem). DR 15/adamantine, immune to blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect. You take only half damage from acid and fire of all kinds.

While it isnt 'you cant attack me unless you have a way to bypass/get rid of a force effect' it is an incredible protection spell which is much easier to use and more applicable to many situations. It is also the same level as the power in question.

Single spell with much more lenient problem areas (or at least easier to bypass) than the power.

Finally, the feat Burrowing Power is amazingly helpful

for this one particular combo that he has come up with it is nice. so long as none of the enemies have any of the number of things which could hamper/destroy this combo and he has spent the other resources to make it work and everything else.

Normally this feat does very little. You normally have to be able to see your target and most barriers that will matter arent exactly transparent. For other effects you are fireing blind

....since the Psion uses the sphere every encounter.

How is a feat that's used every encounter "usually not helpful"?

Considering the cost and the problematic nature of even useing the sphere in the first place I would have to say that this is a campaign specific issue.

If you always fight in very wide open areas with opponenets that cannot dispel/disentegrate/dim door/teleport/move behind obstacles/move a decent amount/use concealment/or anything else which would negate or limit its usefulness and the psion has the necissary resources spent to be able to reliably bypass the barrier and the psion has psychic meditation (otherwise only one power every other round at best, more resources spent to make this work reliably) and the psion limits himself to one level lower than his highest power level known (burrow requires 2pp to fuel) and who knows what else then yes, it could be helpful all of the time.

But then, I would have to say that is a very forgiving and nonstandard campaign and shouldnt be used in a balance discussion. Much like one shouldnt change fireball for the basic rules just because the campaign you are in every creature takes 4x damage from fire. Houserules may be needed to balance things for a particular campaign.


I just dont see how this is useful more than some of the time, and even then it takes at least a round to set up and is easily disruptable by low level spells.

If your high level encounters cant deal with high levels spells or powers then that is the campaigns deal. Even given basic considerations this combo is almost impossible to use.

 

[helium3]

I just dont see how this is useful more than some of the time, and even then it takes at least a round to set up and is easily disruptable by low level spells.

If your high level encounters cant deal with high levels spells or powers then that is the campaigns deal. Even given basic considerations this combo is almost impossible to use.

I wouldn't say that it's impossible to use, but it should probably be a lot easier to foil than this DM thinks. I'd like to think that given the same situation, I'd let the player have his fun for a while and then make him seriously consider whether or not he wants to use that tactic everytime he does it. Not entirely sure how I'd manage that, but I'm sure I'd think of something. I usually do.

Also, I can't help but wonder if there's something about the way the telekinetic sphere spell is written that implies that this combo simply shouldn't work. A normal wall of force stops any spell that requires line of effect but doesn't prevent anything that only needs line of sight. You can teleport through a wall of force and cast spells that have a center point on the other side of the wall. The lowest DC for using burrowing power on this wall is, as was pointed out, 31.

But, the "wall of force" created in a telekinetic sphere is BETTER than this. Not only does it block spells that require line of effect and physical movement like a normal wall of force, it blocks ALL spells including those that allow extradimensional travel. This seems to imply that this isn't just a "wall of force" but is in effect something much more powerful. I envision it as a 2-dimensional spherical surface shaped anti-magic field sandwhiched between two spherical walls of force, the inner of which is also subject to a Dimensional Lock. At the very least, the DC for burrowing a power through this should be a whole heck of a lot higher than 31, and might simply be impossible depending on how you want to explain how the spell actually works.

 

[Nail]

Part of the reason this power/feat combo is broken is because the Psion can make the sphere any size he likes. I realize that there are others here that disavow that notion; but I'd love to see some rule text that spells that out.

Our group's psion has pointed to several spells that have sizes that work as Telekinetic sphere does, and we've agreed there is little in the way of rules text that does not allow the caster to determine the size. Moreover, it seems somewhat silly to require a higher level caster to create a larger sphere (etc) than a lower level caster.

However, if y'all can come up with some iron-clad rules evidence that a Telekinetic sphere must be 15 ft diameter when you are 15th level, and must be 16 ft diameter when you are 16th level, etc.....well, then I'd be happy to share this with our group, and change interpretations accordingly.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Without having the books on me, the shape of spells/powers is unchangeable by the players unless you have the Sculpt feat or it has the (S)Shapeable suffix at the end of the effect description. The existence of the (S)Shapeable feature is in the Psionics rules with Range, Effect, Display, etc.

If all powers could be reshaped at will there would be no point in needing a special designation for it. Since there is a flag to indicate whether a power is reshapable and this power lacks that flag, this power's effects cannot be reshaped unless you have a feat or other special ability that allows you to alter the spell effect.