5.5e has all subclasses start at level 3, though some classes have other subclass-like choices at earlier levels (e.g. clerics get to choose between Protector (heavy armor and martial weapons) and Thaumaturge (extra cantrip and add Wis to Arcana and Religion checks) at level 1).
D&D (2024) Psionics: What Do You Want?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
I just want to take a moment to note that the Barbarian is probably one of the best dnd classes designed in terms of making people feel like a Barbarian. Honestly when I looked at the class, I was like "meh...kind of a dud".
And yet time and time again I have watched people play a barbarian in my game and transform. Normally timid players are screaming obscenities and launching themselves at monsters. There is just something so gosh darn simple and yet powerful about the barbarian mechanics that it truly plays far far FAR more uniquely than I would have ever thought reading it on paper.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I dislike the spell-ification of class features already, so even if it weren't psionics being recast as "it's literally just another flavor of spells", I'd oppose it on those grounds.
What I want to see: A mechanical structure which radically differs from Neo-Vancian spellcasting in nearly all conceivable ways. I don't want the Psion casting spells at all--except, perhaps, in a limited form via some kind of psionic power (or subclass feature) which is using psionic power to imitate or construct spells.
Why I want to see it: "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio." 5e, collectively, is rapidly approaching the point where if something is supernatural, it's magic, and if it's magic, it's specifically spells. Very few things are no longer spells, and WotC has repeatedly tried to turn things that weren't spells into spells (most notoriously, Warlock pacts, for God's sake!)
There are many, many ways to structure new powers in such a way that they can work as a parallel but vastly different system.
Sorcery I would accept remaining "spellcasting" because that's what it's been from the beginning. I wouldn't mind changing it, if the end result looked like the potential promised by the original "D&D Next" playtest Sorcerer (which was absolutely DRIPPING with flavor and so, so, so much better for it than most conceptual things that have actually come along in 5e), but I would accept it remaining as it is. "Miracles" is a complicated thing, but it would please me greatly if the Paladin were completely divorced from the spellcasting system and instead had non-spell miraculous effects it could perform. (I even have ideas! They already have auras. Add "litanies" as sustained active effects, and maybe "consecrations" for more momentary effects. Auras already do things spells don't--litanies and "consecrations" can also do things spells don't, even if there is occasional overlap.)
At this point, the fact that arcane and divine magic are the same is a ship that sailed so long ago, we no longer have any means of recalling it. Primal is teetering on the brink--I think it's still theoretically possible to pull it back, but it'll be hard, and the Druid will always need to be a spellcaster regardless. (Likewise, I actually like the distinct way Warlocks engage with spells. It's still spells, but it's refreshingly different, and Invocations go a long way toward making them much more distinctive.)
Psionics isn't like that. It doesn't need to be anything, because prior to 5e, it has never been the same as other approaches to supernatural power. It's been through some iterations over time, but it's always had a very distinctive way of going about what it does, regardless of edition--even in 4e (one of the few places where "except 4e" doesn't apply!) The only system that has ever made psionics just another flavor of spells is Pathfinder 1e, and even there it's closer to the Primal situation.
CreamCloud0
Hero
i'd like to see them experiment with a halfcaster+augment psion but one which has fullcaster spell level progression, getting their top 5th level slots at 9th level and then just filling out what they do have more from there on.
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Neonchameleon
Legend
I'm with you right until this paragraph - but when you're trying to convince me that something like Levitate (Psionic) from 3.5 isn't a spell when it literally references the arcane spell I start wondering how little paint it takes for you to think something is different. They didn't even bother to file the serial numbers off.
All the 2e, 3.0, and 3.5 psions ever were were off-brand wizards with their spell slots turned into power points, their spell books dumped for spontaneous casting ... and from memory 80 full pages of spells, some of which could be upcast (upcasting being possible for all casters with the right spells in 5e). The flavour was mostly in the unique spells.
Remathilis
Legend
I remember doing a deep dive on 3.5 psionics a great while ago. The core psion class with access to Complete Psion abilities could do most of what the base wizard could do. It had defensive abilities like Force Armor, could create fireball like energy attacks, teleport, divine info, summon minions, and even animate dead. And with the ardent in CPsi you could have a decent healer. It was complete enough that you could strip out every caster in the PHB v3.5 and place a psionic equivalent and it would still work.
mellored
Legend
They reuse spells all the time in 5e.
Warlocks can cast Levitate at-will, self only.
Dragon Sorcerer can summon a dragon without concentration.
And the UA psion can cast spells without verbal components, which works just fine.
Just don't want yet another full caster. Do something different.
Because they are all working on 17 different projects at once, their playtesting is outsourced and when the documents come in there's probably multiple people working on trying to bring all of that documentation together, the amount of time they have to iterate on certain parts of certain books probably varies widely, and they have other company needs to consider and address in their production and publication moreso than just making a singular set system that a select number of people think are good.
You appear to have done a lovely job on your psionic document. But you probably had the luxury of doing it just by yourself using your own singular design specs... and you probably were only focused on this one thing through the entire process. You could just hammer away and hammer away, writing, playtesting, amending, rewriting, with no major time restraints, until you were done with it and had satisfied just yourself and the handful of people you had trying the product out. And now that you've put it out there in the ether... the self-selecting small group of players who have bought it have said that it serves their needs. Which is awesome! And you deserve all the kudos for doing that.
But the dozen-ish members of the D&D design team don't have that luxury. And yes, sometimes things will fall through the cracks or not iterated on enough as they are doing their work on all the different things they have to do at any one time. Which is why a lot of playerbase just needs to "get over it". This idea that because they are the largest company with a large staff they therefore can just magically make things the tippy-top "best thing ever". Having more hands or money does not actually mean more probability of success. Especially considering that because they also have the largest number of players and fans it becomes more and more statistically unlikely to be able to satisfy everyone. And I guarantee you... if your psionic document ever got sent out to the larger WotC D&D playerbase, you would receive more vitriol about it then you ever have up to this point. Because going from 2000 readers to 200,000 is going to give you 100 times the number of people potentially hating what you did.
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mellored
Legend
There are over 200 spells.
Even with 99% balance, that 1% is what everyone complains about.
Also, it's not in 2024.
