Mahiro Satsu
First Post
overly complex, underpowered and unwieldy... wish i could return my Psions handbook.
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Psions, underpowered? Your experience?
- Thread starter The Souljourner
- Start date
The Souljourner
First Post
...damn! I was hoping you guys were going to tell me how wrong I was and how they can really be an asset to the party. Wondrous.
How much do the supplements help? And how likely is my DM to allow them? I know the second one is hard to judge, but just assume he's pretty reasonable and that I can usually convince him to allow most reasonable things.
-The Souljourner (who may need to go back to the halfling paladin idea)
How much do the supplements help? And how likely is my DM to allow them? I know the second one is hard to judge, but just assume he's pretty reasonable and that I can usually convince him to allow most reasonable things.
-The Souljourner (who may need to go back to the halfling paladin idea)
Mahiro Satsu
First Post
Hafling Paladin = more useful than psion. anytime.
Dr_Rictus
First Post
Mr. Delacroix has provided an excellent parody of just exactly what I meant about "playing a psion like a sorcerer." Sorcerers do great as the party's artillery piece. Psions don't. If you try, they will in fact suck at it.
In terms of resource usage, psions advantage is in the ability to use their lowest-level powers a huge amount. That's because if a sorcerer runs out of low-level slots, he doesn't exactly get change back when he has to use a higher-level slot.
Even then, the sorcerer can often get better use out of even low-level damage spells because they scale with his level. The psion does better with general utility powers. Since their per-level advantage is in increased duration, which does scale for psions, they're much more competetive. My party now feels a little naked when my psion character isn't around to toss around spider climbs and mindlinks for everyone, for example.
I haven't found the use of multiple key abilities to be a big problem, myself. It means that damage to a particular ability score can't shut you down the way it can a spellcaster. And, you don't get all that many powers in the first place, so having to pick most of them from just a few disciplines isn't a big deal. There are, however, some disciplines that do not offer good choices at all levels, in my opinion.
Also, maybe it's just my DM, but I've found the lack of components extremely useful. Especially since even a mediocre combatant can screw up a spellcaster a lot just by grappling him, but not a psion. Being able to get out of that grapple by time hopping my foe is great, not to mention fighting harpies with the party inside a silence spell, not taking a failure chance from wearing armor... I could go on.
The superior class skills have already mentioned, so I'll just add that personally, I find that humans are the best racial choice for a psion. With access to superior class skills and psionic feats, you want the extra feat and skill points. Also, I suspect that some disciplines make out much better than others here. The party in which I play my savant doesn't have or feel the need for a rogue, for example.
Anyway, I think there's definitely some issues with psions, and I'll join with others here in recommending If Thoughts Could Kill and some of the material on the Wizards board. Some of that material is also pretty poor, in my opinion. But in general most of the complaints I hear about psions are overstating the case incredibly, and basically saying "I'm trying to play my psion badly (or designed him badly), and it isn't working out for me."
In terms of resource usage, psions advantage is in the ability to use their lowest-level powers a huge amount. That's because if a sorcerer runs out of low-level slots, he doesn't exactly get change back when he has to use a higher-level slot.
Even then, the sorcerer can often get better use out of even low-level damage spells because they scale with his level. The psion does better with general utility powers. Since their per-level advantage is in increased duration, which does scale for psions, they're much more competetive. My party now feels a little naked when my psion character isn't around to toss around spider climbs and mindlinks for everyone, for example.
I haven't found the use of multiple key abilities to be a big problem, myself. It means that damage to a particular ability score can't shut you down the way it can a spellcaster. And, you don't get all that many powers in the first place, so having to pick most of them from just a few disciplines isn't a big deal. There are, however, some disciplines that do not offer good choices at all levels, in my opinion.
Also, maybe it's just my DM, but I've found the lack of components extremely useful. Especially since even a mediocre combatant can screw up a spellcaster a lot just by grappling him, but not a psion. Being able to get out of that grapple by time hopping my foe is great, not to mention fighting harpies with the party inside a silence spell, not taking a failure chance from wearing armor... I could go on.
The superior class skills have already mentioned, so I'll just add that personally, I find that humans are the best racial choice for a psion. With access to superior class skills and psionic feats, you want the extra feat and skill points. Also, I suspect that some disciplines make out much better than others here. The party in which I play my savant doesn't have or feel the need for a rogue, for example.
Anyway, I think there's definitely some issues with psions, and I'll join with others here in recommending If Thoughts Could Kill and some of the material on the Wizards board. Some of that material is also pretty poor, in my opinion. But in general most of the complaints I hear about psions are overstating the case incredibly, and basically saying "I'm trying to play my psion badly (or designed him badly), and it isn't working out for me."
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Mahiro Satsu
First Post
You almost sold me Dr_Rictus. Interesting...
Roland Delacroix said:
GRAWR!!!!! I am here.
Psionics and Psions in particular are "ok" IF you use If Thoughts Could Kill rules AND the new Feats from Dragon all in one smushy little thing. They actually rate ok then, as many many hours of playing and testing have shown in my games.
If you try to use Psions AS IS from the Book. BWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Psions as per the book are the Suckiest Class EVAR. The Warrior and Expert NPC classes make better characters. Seriously. Don't even go down THAT road. You will wind up frustrated and impotent, a potentially annoying combo. You have been warned.
Mahiro Satsu
First Post
Can anyone post a link to some of these rules that make psionics worthy? I would be interested in seeing them.
RogueJK
It's not "Rouge"... That's makeup.
Dr_Rictus said:
I take it that you haven't come across many traps...
No matter how high your Search skill is, you aren't able to find traps with a DC over 20. Only rogues are able to do that. This means that you have no chance of finding any magical traps, since they all have a minimum DC of 25. And even if you could find them, you aren't able to disable magical traps. Again, only rogues are able to do that.
Psions need a few minor tweaks....
They can be good. They basic problem is that at high levels, they are very powerful. And at low levels (<5) they are nigh helpless.
Step one: Get minimize the displays. No ringing bells sound in a 30 foot radius of anyone who is charmed. No ectoplasmic goo drifting through the air.
Step two: Shift the rate of powers learned up a step. ie - A level One psion starts with what is listed for a second level Psion - which is 2 abilities. That's right folks, give the poor psion Two Actual First level Abilties, just as the sorcerer gets. Doing this also handles the bizarre inbalance that appears every other level with bonus power points. (5 extra power points at level 5, but no 3rd level powers, which cost 5 pts, until level 6, when you do not get any extra points)
Step three: Consider multi-classing for one level. Fighter, rogue, barbarian, all handy. Since you can wear armor without any trouble, it helps. Rogue skill pounts, barbarian hit points, fighter feats - all useful and the easiest way to get armor.
I'm currently playing a Dwarf Savant5/Barb1 - He's got 60 hps, a decent base attack (especially when raging) and a solid AC. He is basically a combat character now - he's the party tank, because we lack a straight fighter. Not over-powered, but he is holding his own. A few more levels, and he'll have Displacement, polymorph self and stoneskin. At level 12, he'll have Displacement and stoneskin up 24 hours a day. Along with a boost to his strength, and the first 6 or 8 points of damage he takes will be subdual. All the time. With enough points left over to do some direct damage affects. And fly. Around this point, he will probably become ever so slightly unbalanced.
Note: my char was not made via the shift method.
Addendum - unable to persist stoneskin at level 12 - need to wait another three levels.
They can be good. They basic problem is that at high levels, they are very powerful. And at low levels (<5) they are nigh helpless.
Step one: Get minimize the displays. No ringing bells sound in a 30 foot radius of anyone who is charmed. No ectoplasmic goo drifting through the air.
Step two: Shift the rate of powers learned up a step. ie - A level One psion starts with what is listed for a second level Psion - which is 2 abilities. That's right folks, give the poor psion Two Actual First level Abilties, just as the sorcerer gets. Doing this also handles the bizarre inbalance that appears every other level with bonus power points. (5 extra power points at level 5, but no 3rd level powers, which cost 5 pts, until level 6, when you do not get any extra points)
Step three: Consider multi-classing for one level. Fighter, rogue, barbarian, all handy. Since you can wear armor without any trouble, it helps. Rogue skill pounts, barbarian hit points, fighter feats - all useful and the easiest way to get armor.
I'm currently playing a Dwarf Savant5/Barb1 - He's got 60 hps, a decent base attack (especially when raging) and a solid AC. He is basically a combat character now - he's the party tank, because we lack a straight fighter. Not over-powered, but he is holding his own. A few more levels, and he'll have Displacement, polymorph self and stoneskin. At level 12, he'll have Displacement and stoneskin up 24 hours a day. Along with a boost to his strength, and the first 6 or 8 points of damage he takes will be subdual. All the time. With enough points left over to do some direct damage affects. And fly. Around this point, he will probably become ever so slightly unbalanced.
Note: my char was not made via the shift method.
Addendum - unable to persist stoneskin at level 12 - need to wait another three levels.
Roland Delacroix
First Post
Dr_Rictus said:
Hmm, i don't know what to adress about how wrong you are. In my experience playing them anyway. My post didn't have ANYTHING to do with playing a psion as artillery, please read my post next time.
First, your points.
Well, combat is a fact of life in Dungeons and Dragons. Per Core Rules, its the only way you go up in level. Lets assume players of Psions WANT experience, so will be in combat the average 3-4 times in a 4 hour session. Yes, you could play without combat but I assume thats not the game we are talking about here.
Yes, psions can throw hordes of low level powers. You say that this makes them the ultimate utility caster. Wrong. Wizards are the ultimate utility caster, they get this nifty thing called Scribe Scroll. Their scrolls even scale. So if a psion takes low level offensive spells, he is majorly outclassed by Sorcerer and Wizard because of no scaling. If he takes utility spells, he is again outclassed because a wizard can do more (bigger spell selection) for a few measly XP. Yes! Wizards can do Spider Climb too! As well as Knock, Mage Armor, Fly, etc.
If you haven't had a problem with stat dependency you are either playing a 45+ point game or you have only played low levels. To get, oh just a few spells required for combat, Imp Invisibility, Fly, Limited Wish, you need a 17 Wisdom, 13 Dexterity, and 14 Constitution (Amplified Invisibility). Thats about 21 points there. Assuming your aren't a Clairsentient you are gonna want to drop at least a 16 in another stat for 31 points, and something decent into Intelligence to utilize your skill selection. Well over 30 points to play a decent Psion.
Once you get to high levels and you are prepared for any situation with........Charm Person, Charm Monster, Dominate, Mass Dominate, Mindblank and Microcosm......um, what do I use on the litch again? You likely blew all your power slotson your key ability, and most of those powers have the same function. A Psycoporter can run and not much else. A Telepath can Dominate and not much else, especially if its mindless. The only class i've seen do OK with stat dependency is a Savant, and then I dropped a 16 into Wisdom to later get Shield of Prudence and Emulate Power (AKA: Limited Wish)
Its just your DM. Most DM's discount components unless they are expensive or get stolen, lost, etc. Yes, there have been Polls here in the past. Pretty usefull in certain circumstances, but so is a flying familiar. A wizard/sorcerer who gets grappled enough to be a big deal is in a very small group, is an idiot, or works with stupid players. They should be invisible and flying, or some way removed from melee by their wall of steel-clad fighter.
Hey, Wizards get Silence too. Its so usefull they probably have 3 scrolls of it in addition to their daily spells. Sorcerers prolly have Silence or some other sound-changing spell.
Psions get no armor spell failure. But no proficiency with it either. I've seen about 1/2 the arcane casters I play with use armor as well, usually a Mithril chain shirt. Psions tend to wear Mithril chain shirts too, they don't want that Armor Check penalty. The ones that don't have Inertial Armor, from reading Psion boards thats quite popular as well. Psions have an edge here, i guess, but it seems a wash when you take Mage Armor+ Shield vs that Chain Shirted Psion. Or multiclass the psion to get armor profs, might as well their spellcasting is hardly worth staying for.
Yeah they get some nice skills. Best part about them IMO. With a medium BAB they might be worth taking as a replacement for another class. Played a Savant to 7th level. He was ok but couldn't sneak like the rogue and once the wizard got knock the skills were pretty pointless. Didn't bother with high ranks in Search, the elven rogues auto-search ability was too good. My Telepath kicked arse for the hour or so we were in the city each 5 hour session. That was fun till we had to fight stuff.
I built my Savant and Telepath well, drawing advice from 4 message board communities, and a few other groups. One of those boards was Montes where Bruce Cordell posts. My friends built their Psychoportive and, erm, whats the Intelligence one? The same way, planning out many of the upper level powers in advance. They were pretty min/maxed to tell the truth though we avoided cheesy combos like the infinite PP, etc. We all played to our strength to complement our groups, we build teams pretty well. Every time the Psion came out as the most useless member of our group.
Psi combat, i still see a red haze everytime I think about the multiple times we tried to use psi combat. Worthless waste of PP, don't ever use it.
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