Psions, underpowered? Your experience?

[Roland Delacroix]

If you try to use Psions AS IS from the Book. BWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Psions as per the book are the Suckiest Class EVAR. The Warrior and Expert NPC classes make better characters. Seriously. Don't even go down THAT road. You will wind up frustrated and impotent, a potentially annoying combo. You have been warned.

Heh, i'm kinda hoping he will play them as-is so we can hear some more good stories I was less frustrated in High School than the months I wasted on playing Psions. But as my groups will tell you, i stick it out to playtest a class. Just playtested the Ninja class for about a month of suckitude, MAN that was bad. But still not as bad as my Telepath.

ZOG: Good combo. Savant is probably playable with very carefull stat selection. A level of Barb complimets them nicely as melle fighters. Check out the Extra Rage feat from MotW.

 

[Archer]

Str or Con based psions are the best IMHO. You can never have too much Str or Con and if it increases you psp so much the better. Graft weapon and duo-dimensional hand plus a mind feeder weapon. This is the path of the combat psion. Take a x4 crit weapon to use with your duo-dimensional hand. There are lots of powers you can tack on your grafted weapon that really pile on the damage bonuses. I like the slayer if you don't want too much psionics because its fighter feats + psionic powers.

Resculpt mind is a net 4 extra feats. You want to quicken/persistent your powers and you are golden. Take the psionic powers that exceed the power of arcane spells. There are a few. Are there any new prestige classes with +1 manifester level and heavy armor proficiency? If there was, I'd take that.

I wouldn't be a big fan of the other 4 psions.

Psionics are either weak or abusive depending on how they are handled. This is exactly the case with Mystic Warriors. The parallels to psionics are striking.

 

[Vaxalon]

Usefulness is a combination of two traits, versatility and power. A character can be very un-versatile and very good at that one thing (a fighter or sorceror) or not so good at anything, but widely useful (wizard or cleric) and be useful in different ways.

A psion can be any of these. He can put everything he's got into one stat, and take all his powers there, or he can generalize and be more versatile, but he can't do both.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Step one: Get minimize the displays. No ringing bells sound in a 30 foot radius of anyone who is charmed. No ectoplasmic goo drifting through the air.


That's not really necesarry. The display is either around the power or around the manifester (your choice), read the errata. If you hammer your foe with Mass Concussion (Ma display), they double up in pain as their internal organs explode under telekinetic pressure, puke up blood, howl in agony... oh yeah, there's goop too. But whodunit? With all those people around... If you use Domination (Me display), you take over Bob the barbarian, who starts to rage and attack his friends! Oh yeah, they hear bells, too. But again, whodunit? And can they actually track those "mental bells" if they're busy subduing Bob.

The only bad display is Vi, from my experience.

Most DM's discount components unless they are expensive or get stolen, lost, etc.

We're talking about Somatic and Verbal components here. Especially the second one.
Of course, a held or grappled spellcaster can't use material components (which is more important... most DMs assume they have the components).

And I can manifest Inertial Barrier without diamond dust, thank you.

Hey, Wizards get Silence too.

No they don't. Only bards and clerics get that. Psions can use Control Sound for a similar effect (although it requires concentration, so it's not as good). A better idea is to use Control Body on that mage (that still takes concentration though). Make him slap his arms into his mouth. The wild flailing makes him drop his material components too. Then make him stand helpless in front of the fighter (or astral construct).

Psions get no armor spell failure. But no proficiency with it either.

Get +5 studded leather, and a +5 buckler at 20th level. No penalties at all, and you don't need a feat. Cheaper than +10 Bracers of Armor. Laugh at the mage. 'Nuff said.

The red haze about psionic combat... yeah, most people get that.

Check out the Mind's Eye. I cannot stress enough the virtue of the Vigor chain powers. And use ITCK, since most psions can't manifest Vigor without help.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Nice post (psi)severed, you have some valid points though i'm sure from past experience our opinions differ somewhat. As always, YMMV.

You mentioned chain powers, thats reminds me. A great idea for Psions, and Sorcerers as well, is to allow them to 'upgrade' their powers along the chain, i don't think anyone has mentioned that. You basically let them replace lesser powers with better ones once the higher level slot opens. The new power has to refer to the old one though, something along the lines of As Charm Person except... . This doesn't make psions much more powerfull but they don't get stuck with lame low level, low DC powers that suck. I did this about halfway through with my Telepath and Savant and it was very helpfull, and alot of fun getting to play with more powers.

Hmm, totally forgot about Verbal, that is pretty nice in the right circumstances. Especially if the DM allows the common house rule that a Psion only needs to take Hide Power once and can apply it multiple times to any display. Interesting idea, if Control Sound stops casting would a similar Control Smell/Control Light stop olfactory and visible displays and render the power useless?

Mages can wear that combo just as well, and i've seen it several times.

I'm glad everyone is posting helpfull ideas instead of just yelling back and forth "Psions Suck! No They Don't!" like i've seen so many times before.

 

[TroyXavier]

One great things about psionics are the feats. Those are useful. Also, as mentioned, the skills are just cool.

 

[Fade]

I think that if you completely junked displays (worst part of the book IMHO) a social Telepath could be quite powerful. With a sympathetic psicrystal, attraction, psychoanalyst, synergy bonuses and 18 Cha, you can get +20 to Diplomacy at 3rd level, plus plenty of fun manipulative powers that you can use during a discussion without anyone noticing. During combat 'suggest' to enemies that they run away from the scary fighter, or 'attract' them to fighting with their bare hands. Don't try and do damage with a Psion, it just doesn't work. Get other people (including the entire town guard that you talked into helping you) to hurt people for you.

 

[Thanee]

Actually Wizards get the best Silence spell in the game... Khelben's Suspended Silence!

We have a Fighter 1/Psion 7 in our current campaign and he is not that bad.

Psions get healing powers, which is pretty nice. Animal Affinity is a Sorcerer's dream!

In the offense they lack considerably and their powers seem to be exhausted quickly. Even my Rogue 3/Wizard 5 can cast more spells per day than the Psion (unless he manifests only weak powers, of course).

Mind Blast is horrible, we lowered the duration to 1d4 rounds + 1 round per 4 levels. Of course with the obscene DC's our Psion usually generates (like 8, including nonpsionic buffer ), it's not really that hard.

ITCK and the accompanying updates to psionics (Scaling, PrC updates) are a must!

While Psions are very similar to Sorcerers, I suppose the point is to make them different. Resembling Sorcerers won't work, since they can hardly live up to the raw power of the Sorcerer class. But with all those nifty things, that Psions get and Sorcerers don't - like Skills, weird psionic Feats, healing powers, Vigor!!!, etc. - it might be worthwhile.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dr_Rictus]

My post didn't have ANYTHING to do with playing a psion as artillery, please read my post next time.

Just tweaking your nose a bit. You must admit that your original post was a bit over the top. I assure you, I did read it, but to me, trying to compete with the mages in terms of damage-dealing is the best way to "blow all your PP in a single combat and be useless for the rest of the game."

I'm glad everyone is posting helpfull ideas instead of just yelling back and forth "Psions Suck! No They Don't!" like i've seen so many times before.

Me too. I can't tell you how sick I am of that. (Psi)SeveredHead in particular did an excellent job in clarifying my point about components (yes, it's the Verbal and Somatic ones that are particularly relevant to me) and armor (stacking magic armor and shield does become quite competetive with the wizards' protective spells).

Well, combat is a fact of life in Dungeons and Dragons.

Naturally. But providing logistical support (command and control, transport and evac) is a perfectly good way to participate in a combat. It's not to everyone's taste, but I do find it's something that psions do pretty well. The comparison to bards isn't really a bad one.

Regarding armor, I might also add that a psion who doesn't engage in much physical combat doesn't really necessarily care if he isn't proficient in his armor, and there are some neat armor enchantments that aren't commonly available through other items (at least not continuously). I think too many players just have a knee-jerk reaction about proficiency and don't look at what the actual penalty is, and whether they can tolerate it.

Regarding scrolls, wizards definitely have the lock here, but if you're playing by the ruling (promulgated by WotC, as I recall) that each spell counts as an item for purposes of the one-day minimum on making magic items, I doubt you're going to see your party wizard making dozens of scrolls of handy low-level spells. Wands are more the issue for that usage, and you do have a point there.

This last issue is one that's probably highly campaign-dependent. If psionics are presented as exotic even compared to magic, you're going to suffer from a reduced availability of items, and of NPC psions to cooperate in making such items. Personally I think that's a mistake, given the wild abandon with which many DM's seem to make spells available to wizards. If you're going for the "exotic" feel, I'd prefer a tight-knit subculture of psionics so your psions have the opportunity (available to sorcerers, if they're thinking) to fill some of the gaps in their power lists by cooperating with each other on power stones and dorjes.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

if Control Sound stops casting would a similar Control Smell/Control Light stop olfactory and visible displays and render the power useless?

Displays aren't components, so if you stop a display (eg use Silence to stop an Au display), the psion can manifest the power normally. In fact, using Silence to hide an Au display is a valid tactic for a rogue/psion.

(Of course, Silence will stop a Cone of Sound like it stops any other sonic effect.)

Furthermore, the Ol display isn't a real scent, AFAIK, since the scent seems different to each person. It stimulates the olfactory center of your brain (the same way the Me display works). So if you were in a scent-free zone (special spell?) and you smell something, you know someone is using psionics with an Ol display.

trying to compete with the mages in terms of damage-dealing is the best way to "blow all your PP in a single combat and be useless for the rest of the game.

There are some feats that help you there. Even better, you can Trigger a low-level power (like Cone of Sound or Greater Concussion), apply metapsionic feats to it (like Overpower at the Mind's Eye) and blast your opponent. Usually you'll get to do it for free. (You can't take 10 with Trigger Power though, see errata v 2.0).

Psions have a lot of useful low-level powers, like Time Hop, Displacement, Vigor (post-errata it's so sweet!), Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Fly, etc. And unlike a sorcerer, you aren't limited to slots.

Or, you can blow your power points on high-level non-damaging powers like Displacement, Monster Domination, Mass Cocoon, or whatever. You can be more effective than a sorcerer if you do this.

BTW a nomad can provide logistical support, but they can also use a ranged weapon. When you use Metaphysical Weapon on a crossbow and MW on a bolt, you get a pretty high attack bonus, which works well with your Dex. A halfling nomad could do the same thing with a sling and bullets.

A Seer makes it difficult to surprise a party, and can use some of the low-level powers (Combat Prescience, for instance) to buff himself.

Note that non-combat psions usually have a decent secondary stat (eg a 14) to use a combat-related discipline. For instance, one of my NPCs is a 9th-level dwarven Seer with Strength 14 and Con 15, so he can use Improved Biofeedback and Claws of the Vampire, and Inertial Barier.