Psions vs Wizards : DCs

[Henry]

To those noting it's not a big difference, I'll point out that it's the equivalent of a free feat, and big enough that WotC decided to nerf that feat in 3.5.

But is it worth what amounts to an "epic" feat, though - it only kicks in at VERY high levels.

 

[Enforcer]

To those noting it's not a big difference, I'll point out that it's the equivalent of a free feat, and big enough that WotC decided to nerf that feat in 3.5.

I presume you mean Heighten Spell? If not, you'll have to dumb it down for me. I'll note that a 20pp psionic charm person still gets stopped by a minor globe of invulnerability, whereas a heightened spell does not.

 

[Henry]

I presume you mean Heighten Spell? If not, you'll have to dumb it down for me. I'll note that a 20pp psionic charm person still gets stopped by a minor globe of invulnerability, whereas a heightened spell does not.

Nope, he's referring to Spell Focus - and as devil's advocate, Spell Focus only affects one school of magic, at that.

However, it's not something that makes a huge difference at those high a levels, because unlike spell focus, it never comes into play at anything lower than 19th level (or 18th if my math is wrong).

 

[Infiniti2000]

However, it's not something that makes a huge difference at those high a levels, because unlike spell focus, it never comes into play at anything lower than 19th level (or 18th if my math is wrong).

I agree it's only at the high-level, but that cannot be a caveat for saying that it's okay.

+1 IMO makes a difference at any level. +5% only doesn't make a difference if you need a natural 20 to save or a natural 1 to fail regardless. Otherwise, it makes the same difference at any level of a campaign. Doesn't it?

 

[KuKu]

To those noting it's not a big difference, I'll point out that it's the equivalent of a free feat, and big enough that WotC decided to nerf that feat in 3.5.

The two extra power points are an extra cost as well. Spell focus was nerfed because of greater spell focus instead of just removing greater spell focus. Spell focus is now a rather weak feat. Looking at psionic charm person though can you even get it up to nineteen power points in cost? It only has three augmenents and none of them mention putting more than their base cost in. It looks like you could only have a total cost value of eleven which is equivalent to a sixth level effect and so would have a much lower difficulty class. Mostly though we are looking at a break point between the two systems. It is not easy to compare at break points.

 

[marune]

Oops, Charm, Psionic is not a good example, I'll find one.

 

[The_Ditto]

+1 IMO makes a difference at any level. +5% only doesn't make a difference if you need a natural 20 to save or a natural 1 to fail regardless. Otherwise, it makes the same difference at any level of a campaign. Doesn't it?

uh ... ... more accurately it's 5% (+1 DC) only 15% (levels 18, 19 and 20) of the time (ie averages out to coming into affect roughly .75% of the time) ... kinda puts it in perspective, if you ask me ...

nah ... non-issue if you ask me ...
as stated, 19 pp spent is a 10th level slot .. compare apples to apples.
Want to compare psionic charm - augmented .. to a 9th level "charm" spell? ok .. that's 17 pp ... DC ? Same ...

You want to compare a 19pp psionic Charm to the arcane equivilent? ok, we're talking a 10th level "charm" spell ... again, DC ? Same ...

Cheers!

 

[Someone]

Oops, Charm, Psionic is not a good example.

Indeed, you can't spend more than 11 power points on Psionic Charm (1 base, plus 2 to be able to affect animals, fey, etc, plus 4 to be able to affect abberrations, dragons, etc, plus 4 points to extend the duration) So he'll never be able to up the save for more than 16+ability modifier, while a spellcaster with heighten spell can spend whatever spell slot he wants on Charm person or Charm monster.

Also, the psion is paying the cost of a 6th, 9th or 10th level power. He gets the DC of a 6th, 9th, or 10th level power. Where's the advantage?

 

[Infiniti2000]

uh ... ... more accurately it's 5% (+1 DC) only 15% (levels 18, 19 and 20) of the time (ie averages out to coming into affect roughly .75% of the time) ... kinda puts it in perspective, if you ask me ...

Well, the example is 20th-level, so there's no concept of "15% of the time." In other words, this is not a comparison about earlier levels because those are a non-factor. For the sake of this example, 20th-level is the only level that exists.

However, if you think about earlier levels, then what you are saying is that it's equal up to 17th level, so therefore giving the psion +1 at levels 18-20 is okay (a non-factor). I can't agree with that at all.

as stated, 19 pp spent is a 10th level slot .. compare apples to apples.

I don't disagree with that, which is why I made my first post.

So, to follow the OP's goal, try talking about just the +1 extra from the psion vs. the (e.g.) wizard. Don't talk about the virtual slot it consumes.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Indeed, you can't spend more than 11 power points on Psionic Charm

Doesn't the PsiH have a Heighten Power metapsionic feat?