Psions vs Wizards : DCs

[marune]

Well, the example is 20th-level, so there's no concept of "15% of the time." In other words, this is not a comparison about earlier levels because those are a non-factor. For the sake of this example, 20th-level is the only level that exists.

However, if you think about earlier levels, then what you are saying is that it's equal up to 17th level, so therefore giving the psion +1 at levels 18-20 is okay (a non-factor). I can't agree with that at all.

I don't disagree with that, which is why I made my first post.

So, to follow the OP's goal, try talking about just the +1 extra from the psion vs. the (e.g.) wizard. Don't talk about the virtual slot it consumes.

Can Wizards use Heigthen spell to put their spells in their 10+ slots?

Even if yes, 20th level Wizards don't have access to 10th level slots, Psions still possess a little advantage.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Even if yes, 20th level Wizards don't have access to 10th level slots, Psions still possess a little advantage.

Agreed, but balance in general isn't a consideration for your thread, is it? I'm trying to focus on the +1 difference. Anything else in terms of cost of the power or anything should be considered already factored in to the balance equation.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that wizards and psions are 100% in balance. We have the following three cases:

1. Thus, without the +1 DC at levels 18-20, the psion is underpowered. The psion needs it in order to compete with the wizard. The cost the psion spends to achieve that result is irrelevant, because such costs are already factored into the base assumption.
2. The +1 DC is irrelevant. We could have given wizards a +1 DC at levels 18-20 instead of the psion without affecting balance at all. I disagree with this dismissal of the +1, however, as I noted in a previous post. +5% is not negligible.
3. The +1 DC makes the psion overpowered. Why was he given this boost? Perhaps a typo or a calculation while designing psionics that wasn't thought entirely through.

 

[marune]

Agreed, but balance in general isn't a consideration for your thread, is it? I'm trying to focus on the +1 difference. Anything else in terms of cost of the power or anything should be considered already factored in to the balance equation.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that wizards and psions are 100% in balance. We have the following three cases:

1. Thus, without the +1 DC at levels 18-20, the psion is underpowered. The psion needs it in order to compete with the wizard. The cost the psion spends to achieve that result is irrelevant, because such costs are already factored into the base assumption.
2. The +1 DC is irrelevant. We could have given wizards a +1 DC at levels 18-20 instead of the psion without affecting balance at all. I disagree with this dismissal of the +1, however, as I noted in a previous post. +5% is not negligible.
3. The +1 DC makes the psion overpowered. Why was he given this boost? Perhaps a typo or a calculation while designing psionics that wasn't thought entirely through.

The problem with a discussion on Psion vs other spellcasting classes balance is that the number of encounters / day plays an important part in it, and I don't want to discuss a lot about that one again.

IME with Psions, the augmentations seem to be an important argument toward arguing that Psions are overpowered, and then I noticed that they can even beat "Wizards" DCs in some cases.

 

[Infiniti2000]

IME with Psions, the augmentations seem to be an important argument toward arguing that Psions are overpowered, and then I noticed that they can even beat "Wizards" DCs in some cases.

Well, I don't have the book with me, but if the Heighten Power exists and it works similarly to spells, then the psion could create a psionic charm that's 9th-level, augment it with the maximum value, have it affect basically anything, and the base DC would be 10+9+5=24. 5 points higher than the heightened wizard spell, plus extras. If we ignore those extras as being of secondary consideration (primary only to a balance discussion), then the DC for the psion is still higher. Does the extra PP spent pay for the extra DC? Hard to answer that without getting into the balance discussion in the first place.

 

[KarinsDad]

There are something like 45 (hostile) Saving Throw powers in XPH that cannot have their DCs increased by augmentation. There are something like 40 (hostile) Saving Throw powers in XPH that can have their DCs increased by augmentation.

Considering that virtually all 8th and lower level Arcane and Divine spells (hundreds of them) with Saving Throws can be Heightened up to 10 + 9 + Ability Score Mod (even ones that are nearly identical to the 45 powers in the XPH that cannot be augmented), the fact that 40 powers can have their DCs augmented one higher than that is pure white noise and virtually irrelevant in the large scheme of things.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, I don't have the book with me, but if the Heighten Power exists and it works similarly to spells, then the psion could create a psionic charm that's 9th-level, augment it with the maximum value, have it affect basically anything, and the base DC would be 10+9+5=24. 5 points higher than the heightened wizard spell, plus extras. If we ignore those extras as being of secondary consideration (primary only to a balance discussion), then the DC for the psion is still higher. Does the extra PP spent pay for the extra DC? Hard to answer that without getting into the balance discussion in the first place.

Easy to answer.

There is no Heighten Power feat. The rest of this is not relevant.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Easy to answer.

There is no Heighten Power feat. The rest of this is not relevant.

There is. It's at least in the Urban Arcana according to this site:
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/TGM_Complete_Feats.asp

Other Google searched showed it in the Psionics Handbook, but maybe those were for 3.0 or something.

 

[Enforcer]

There is. It's at least in the Urban Arcana according to this site:
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/TGM_Complete_Feats.asp

Other Google searched showed it in the Psionics Handbook, but maybe those were for 3.0 or something.

That link is for d20 Modern, which isn't even the same game.

 

[irdeggman]

There is. It's at least in the Urban Arcana according to this site:
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/TGM_Complete_Feats.asp

Other Google searched showed it in the Psionics Handbook, but maybe those were for 3.0 or something.

Urban Arcana is a d20 Modern setting. Wrong game.

Psionics Handbook was indeed 3.0. The Expanded Psionics handbook is the 3.5 WotC psionics rules sourcebook.

 

[starwed]

Something which hasn't been pointed out yet: Psions don't have an exact equivalent of the Spell Focus feat.

Rather, they have 2 feats which grant +1/+2 on your DC, but only if you expend your psionic focus. Since psions can't raise the DC and apply metapsionics at the same time (without investing in a couple more feats) that's a pretty big limitation. So wizards have an edge over psions in that respect, since the equivalent feats require no cost to use, even if they only work with one school.

On the other hand, there exist special items which grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the DC of all powers from a particular discipline. So that's an additional +1 psions can add to their save DCs.