Psions vs Wizards : DCs

[KarinsDad]

IME with Psions, the augmentations seem to be an important argument toward arguing that Psions are overpowered, and then I noticed that they can even beat "Wizards" DCs in some cases.

Psions can Nova easier then Wizards or Sorcerers (at least until you get out of core books for each). That does not make them overpowered. That means they can Nova easier, typically at the cost of fewer effective encounters per day. I suspect that many people equate Nova with overpowered.

 

[irdeggman]

Hmmm I wonder if I missed something.

It doesn't look like a psion can apply more than one metapsionic feat at a time. Applying a metapsionic feat requires expending your psionic focus so after the first one is applied - no more focus.

The text in the PHB about applying more than one metamagic feat at once does not exist in the expanded psionics book (or Complete Psionic either for that matter).

I haven't found anything on this in the FAQ or WotC articles either.

Again, I may have missed something but it looks deliberate by exclusion to me.

If so, this is another "balancer" for psions as well.

 

[starwed]

It doesn't look like a psion can apply more than one metapsionic feat at a time. Applying a metapsionic feat requires expending your psionic focus so after the first one is applied - no more focus.

It's only possible (outside of epic play) to use two metapsionic feats by somehow acquiring two psionic foci. There's a feat that lets you store an extra focus in your psycrystal, for instance.

The flip side is that most metapsionic feats cost 2pp less than the equivalent level increase would translate to. (The exception being things like extend, since that will often be used outside combat.)

 

[gnfnrf]

It's only possible (outside of epic play) to use two metapsionic feats by somehow acquiring two psionic foci. There's a feat that lets you store an extra focus in your psycrystal, for instance.

The flip side is that most metapsionic feats cost 2pp less than the equivalent level increase would translate to. (The exception being things like extend, since that will often be used outside combat.)

The flipflipside is that for damaging augmentable powers, Empower Power and Maximize Power don't typically actually produce more average damage than just spending the PP to augment the power.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Bacris]

The flipflipside is that for damaging augmentable powers, Empower Power and Maximize Power don't typically actually produce more average damage than just spending the PP to augment the power.

--
gnfnrf

8th level and beyond, Empower Power is mathematically superior to augmentation in damage, but has a 5% easier DC (6d6*1.5 > 8d6). Once you get into the teens, Empower Power is mathematically superior, as the extra damage far outweighs that extra 1 DC.

Maximize isn't better mathematically until the mid-to-later teens.

 

[KarinsDad]

8th level and beyond, Empower Power is mathematically superior to augmentation in damage, but has a 5% easier DC (6d6*1.5 > 8d6). Once you get into the teens, Empower Power is mathematically superior, as the extra damage far outweighs that extra 1 DC.

7th level, not 8th for damage (1.5 * 5 > 7).


And, one does not need to get into the teens to get more damage with Empower taking into account the +1 DC. For example, 6D6 Empowered ~= 9D6 damage > 8D6 at 8th level. A Psion with Int 20 at 8th level would have a DC of 19 with non-Empowered and 18 with Empowered. Low save opponents at 8th level tend to have about +4 and high save opponents tend to have about +10.

So taking a damage power which saves for half damage, ( 9D6 * .65 + 4.5D6 * .35 = 7.425D6 ) is greater average damage than ( 8D6 * .7 + 4D6 * .3 = 6.8D6 ) for low save opponents.

Ditto for high save opponents ( 9D6 * .35 + 4.5D6 * .65 = 6.075D6 ) is greater average damage than ( 8D6 * .4 + 4D6 * .6 = 5.6D6 ).


This is also almost true of damaging powers that do not save for half damage. For example, Mind Thrust: ( 9D10 * .65 = 5.85D10 ) is greater average damage than ( 8D10 * .7 = 5.6D10 ) for low save opponents; ( 9D10 * .35 = 3.15D10 ) is less average damage than ( 8D10 * .4 = 3.2D10 ) for high save opponents, so one would have to get to 9th level to more or less do greater average damage across the board with these types of powers (i.e. do not save for half damage powers).

 

[The_Ditto]

Well, the example is 20th-level, so there's no concept of "15% of the time." In other words, this is not a comparison about earlier levels because those are a non-factor. For the sake of this example, 20th-level is the only level that exists.

ahh ok ... so exclude everything that is relevant to proving one side of the argument .. hence we can only agree since it's the only option left?
No, sorry, we can't go dismissing things like this so easily ...

(Case in point: Psions are overpowered because a Psionic Charm augmented to 11 pp has a higher DC than a 1st level charm spell ... I hope you see that this isn't a good comparision and proves nothing ??)

However, if you think about earlier levels, then what you are saying is that it's equal up to 17th level, so therefore giving the psion +1 at levels 18-20 is okay (a non-factor). I can't agree with that at all.

I can .. wanna know why? Easy ... the psion has to pay for it ... it is not a free +1 ... he paid for it with PP ...
That's why I said, if you want to compare apples to apples, you gotta compare a 19pp cost to a 10th level slot ... if you want to compare to a 9th level slot ... fine ... look ONLY at 17pp ... when you do, well . hey ... the DCs are the same!!

Let's assume for the sake of argument that wizards and psions are 100% in balance. We have the following three cases:

1. Thus, without the +1 DC at levels 18-20, the psion is underpowered. The psion needs it in order to compete with the wizard. The cost the psion spends to achieve that result is irrelevant, because such costs are already factored into the base assumption.
2. The +1 DC is irrelevant. We could have given wizards a +1 DC at levels 18-20 instead of the psion without affecting balance at all. I disagree with this dismissal of the +1, however, as I noted in a previous post. +5% is not negligible.
3. The +1 DC makes the psion overpowered. Why was he given this boost? Perhaps a typo or a calculation while designing psionics that wasn't thought entirely through.

I vote: Option 1 ...
Why?
Easy ... it's back to the "Psion has to pay for that extra +1" ...
Could go on about ... "Spell focus gives a bigger bonus and is automatically applied, psionic equivilent actually costs more than just picking up the feat ... (ie expend focus)"
Could go on about ... "Psions have to pay to get anything extra ... " .. but I mentioned that already ...

Seriously ... if we think it's overpowered than either:
a) we're getting something for free
or
b) we're getting something for a ridiculously low price.

Since the psion has to pay PP for that extra +1 DC (up to 19 pp over 17pp) ... he's definitely paying something
So option (a) is out ...

That leaves option (b) for those who believe it's "overpowered" ... is that about right?
So let's focus on that ... do people believe that 2PP is too cheap for a +1 to DC ??
Why? Why not?

This may be the crux of the issue ... from my point of view ...
(Of course, I have been accused of being blind before ... heh )

 

[Solarious]

Of course, psions sacrifice versatility compared to Wizards for their increased DCs, raw endurance compared to Sorcerors, and metamagic freedoms compared to both. Running the math shows that for pure damage potential, metamagic is absolutely neccessary... and of course, psions need a feat and points in a subpar stat to even metamagic somewhat slightly better than Sorcerors. And if they want to apply two metamagic feats at a time, or even use metapsionics on a semi-regular basis, you're going to need even more feats... Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment.

Plus any metapsionics you want to use.

Compared to those hurdles, a +1 DC really isn't an issue. Psionics and Vancian magic are too different to effectively compare anyways.

 

[Blightersbane]

Now maybe I am missing something (nothing new). In the example Wizard vs. Psion vs. Cleric vs. Sorcerer vs. Warmage examples I find it hard for the apple to apple comparison unless certain specifics are given. So let’s say for the sake of argument you have all with the following.

- 0 magicals
- 10th level
- All attributes 18

10th level because its middle of the road and everyone can relate to playing a tenth level pc and should be accustom to the skills feats & spells / powers available at this level. I would be interested to see what the pro Psions did with this as well as the pro Arcanist and those that believe the Divine casters have the edge what say you?

Undoubtedly these types of threads turn into the “Psion vs ? so now we at least have an even playing field from which to debate.

Blightersbane