Ptolus at Amazon?
- Thread starter rpghost
- Start date
JustaPlayer
First Post
The only problem I have with direct sales is that there is no chance to flip through a book before hand. Of course I'm an Amazon junkie though. The only time I go to the FLGS is when I can pick a book up cheaper there. Usually just Mongoose products I decide to pick up and didn't pre order.pogre said:
Anyway, if Amazon doesn't get this book, as others said, I will pass. There's no way I'm gonna pay more than $100 for a book.
shaylon
First Post
Treebore said:
I'm sorry but could you explain this? How did he fail to get his product to the customer? He has a website that you can order off of, he will be selling it at GenCon, and FLGS's will carry the product. One website (amazon) not carrying it at a vastly reduced price equals "failed to get his product to the customer"?
Even if you can't get to GenCon, which is understandable. Even if you don't have an FLGS local to you, which is the case for many poeple, he gave you an option online. What is the difference if amazon carries it or not?
Maybe White Wolf has different shipping methods and it might be harder to get a copy outside of the US but I hardly see it as a failure on Monte's part. I mean, he even offered payment plan methods to allow people who would have trouble paying out a large chunk of money all at once. And he did that without inflating the price for the monthly payments so that you still pay the same amount as a person who has the money to spend.
I don't know, I don't think it is a big deal that Amazon won't get the book directly.
-Shay
Dark Psion
First Post
Ptolus ranking at Amazon.com
Yesterday(Sunday July 2): #202,443 in Books
Today (Monday July 3): #66,261 in Books
I think all he did was get more people to go order at Amazon.com.
Yesterday(Sunday July 2): #202,443 in Books
Today (Monday July 3): #66,261 in Books
I think all he did was get more people to go order at Amazon.com.
BSF
Explorer
I feel like I am spamming the thread since I didn't wrap up my responses in one ultra-mega post.
This isn't entirely true because of the way larger resellers do business. To some degree, the distribution channel is also becoming a problem source because they are trying to execute business in the same manner. It is becoming endemic and hurts small publishers more than large publishers.
In a better world, things would probably work like this.
Product is released within 1 week, that product is in stores. Within 21 days, the first sales cycle has sold through. Store owner is paying the dsitrbutor within 3 days, the distributor is paying the publisher within 4 days of that. This still puts the first dribbling of cash flow back to the publisher in excess of 30 days! But it is better than what I suspect happens now. Optimally, everyone would have positive cash flow within 30 days and the second sales cycle would be running to finish off backstock inventory.
Remember folks, businesses carry a certain line of credit to other businesses. They have to given the way cash flow works.
But this is not the way things are happening right now! Publishers might not see their accounts receivable fulfilled for 90 days, 120 days, ever! Last year one distributor went out of business and publishers never got paid! So you might walk past a book in the local store that the store owner paid for, but the publisher never saw any of that money! That is how the distribution channel has hurt our hobby.
You might think this is a great example of why the hobby should ditch the hobby distribution channel and go with the book channel right? Well, not necessarily. When I worked at the local independent bookstore, we had a terrible time competing with the big resellers. You see, while we had to pay bills within a reasonably short period of time, the big booksellers didn't! The big booksellers would negotiate free shipping, to each store. (No warehousing costs = more efficient) The big booksellers would negotiate larger payment windows. (Hold onto your money as long as possible.) The big booksellers would negotiate much more lenient return policies. (If it doesn't sell, they don't ask for a refund, they take it off the unpaid invoice.) This sets up an environment where the publisher might not see one payment for a book until 180 days after it was sold to the reseller. Now if the publisher went back and asked for payment sooner, the reseller might agree to do that. But they would do that at pennies on the dollar. (In essence, a secondary discount.)
How does a small publisher compete in that market? If you are an RPG publisher, how do you sell your books knowing you won't see a penny from that sale for half a year? No cash flow means you can't pay people. No pay to artists or writers. No rent. No electricity. No water. No food.
While it makes sense that buying more at Amazon would mean more money to the publisher, that isn't necessarily the case. It means more money for Amazon! But Amazon might be positioned to the point where they are demanding more and more concessions from the publisher. So while the retail price is lower, Amazon is not cutting very far into their profit margin, they are demanding that the publisher cut into the publishers profit margin. They might be doing that through shipping, extended receivables, return policies, and "early payment discounts". All the while, the publisher is in negative cash flow for several months. It takes an efficient business to meet those demands. It takes a big business to eat the cash flow for that long. It takes a big, efficient business to be successful in that situation. How many game companies are able to do that?
Mind you, I am not trying to knock on game companies! These are challenges for all businesses in all industries. But this industry is largely run by people that love the hobby, not the brutal efficiencies of business.
Barak, I don't fault your mentality regarding Amazon. From the consumer perspective it is a wonderful outlet! I understand that. But there is a lot going on behind the scenes for any business. I have a slightly different perspective due to differing experiences in life. I agree that it would be cool to get Ptolus at Aamzon for a great price. But I can see many ways in which this would not be advantageous to Malhavoc, or White Wolf. Very few of them have to do with a discount to the customer. Most have to do with the discount to the reseller that might be demanded just to put your book in their store.
Obviously I don't have the full picture. I am not affiliated with any of the involved parties in any manner other than being a customer. But I do hope that I can share some of my experiences to demonstrate why this is a complex issue at a troubling time for our hobby.
Barak said:
This isn't entirely true because of the way larger resellers do business. To some degree, the distribution channel is also becoming a problem source because they are trying to execute business in the same manner. It is becoming endemic and hurts small publishers more than large publishers.
In a better world, things would probably work like this.
Product is released within 1 week, that product is in stores. Within 21 days, the first sales cycle has sold through. Store owner is paying the dsitrbutor within 3 days, the distributor is paying the publisher within 4 days of that. This still puts the first dribbling of cash flow back to the publisher in excess of 30 days! But it is better than what I suspect happens now. Optimally, everyone would have positive cash flow within 30 days and the second sales cycle would be running to finish off backstock inventory.
Remember folks, businesses carry a certain line of credit to other businesses. They have to given the way cash flow works.
But this is not the way things are happening right now! Publishers might not see their accounts receivable fulfilled for 90 days, 120 days, ever! Last year one distributor went out of business and publishers never got paid! So you might walk past a book in the local store that the store owner paid for, but the publisher never saw any of that money! That is how the distribution channel has hurt our hobby.
You might think this is a great example of why the hobby should ditch the hobby distribution channel and go with the book channel right? Well, not necessarily. When I worked at the local independent bookstore, we had a terrible time competing with the big resellers. You see, while we had to pay bills within a reasonably short period of time, the big booksellers didn't! The big booksellers would negotiate free shipping, to each store. (No warehousing costs = more efficient) The big booksellers would negotiate larger payment windows. (Hold onto your money as long as possible.) The big booksellers would negotiate much more lenient return policies. (If it doesn't sell, they don't ask for a refund, they take it off the unpaid invoice.) This sets up an environment where the publisher might not see one payment for a book until 180 days after it was sold to the reseller. Now if the publisher went back and asked for payment sooner, the reseller might agree to do that. But they would do that at pennies on the dollar. (In essence, a secondary discount.)
How does a small publisher compete in that market? If you are an RPG publisher, how do you sell your books knowing you won't see a penny from that sale for half a year? No cash flow means you can't pay people. No pay to artists or writers. No rent. No electricity. No water. No food.
While it makes sense that buying more at Amazon would mean more money to the publisher, that isn't necessarily the case. It means more money for Amazon! But Amazon might be positioned to the point where they are demanding more and more concessions from the publisher. So while the retail price is lower, Amazon is not cutting very far into their profit margin, they are demanding that the publisher cut into the publishers profit margin. They might be doing that through shipping, extended receivables, return policies, and "early payment discounts". All the while, the publisher is in negative cash flow for several months. It takes an efficient business to meet those demands. It takes a big business to eat the cash flow for that long. It takes a big, efficient business to be successful in that situation. How many game companies are able to do that?
Mind you, I am not trying to knock on game companies! These are challenges for all businesses in all industries. But this industry is largely run by people that love the hobby, not the brutal efficiencies of business.
Barak, I don't fault your mentality regarding Amazon. From the consumer perspective it is a wonderful outlet! I understand that. But there is a lot going on behind the scenes for any business. I have a slightly different perspective due to differing experiences in life. I agree that it would be cool to get Ptolus at Aamzon for a great price. But I can see many ways in which this would not be advantageous to Malhavoc, or White Wolf. Very few of them have to do with a discount to the customer. Most have to do with the discount to the reseller that might be demanded just to put your book in their store.
Obviously I don't have the full picture. I am not affiliated with any of the involved parties in any manner other than being a customer. But I do hope that I can share some of my experiences to demonstrate why this is a complex issue at a troubling time for our hobby.
Odhanan
Adventurer
That's not that Ptolus isn't available to people. It is, through FLGS, White Wolf. You have the choice not to order with White Wolf, but the big book is available there for anyone who wants it.
So yes, I agree with Crothian. This is about people getting mad because they thought they could get Ptolus at a hugely reduced price at Amazon.
So yes, I agree with Crothian. This is about people getting mad because they thought they could get Ptolus at a hugely reduced price at Amazon.
Treebore
First Post
Another thing, if he is so concerned about the LGS' why is he selling pre-orders? Every one he sells steals potential profit away from every LGS, it is the very reason many of the companies claim not to sell straight to the public. So why is Monte doing it if the LGS' survival is such a big concern for him? Could it be the much larger profit margin?
Crothian, you are right, I want the big discount, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty or wrong about it. That is OK, though. Now I am going to get the biggest discount of all, I'm not going to spend a single penny to own it. I think from now on I'll make a point of not owning anything being pre-sold by Monte and WW. To show my support for the book sellers, ALL of them.
Crothian, you are right, I want the big discount, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty or wrong about it. That is OK, though. Now I am going to get the biggest discount of all, I'm not going to spend a single penny to own it. I think from now on I'll make a point of not owning anything being pre-sold by Monte and WW. To show my support for the book sellers, ALL of them.
Turjan
Explorer
As I said in my last post, I think the LGS part of his deal is one part real concern, one part pretense in order not to have to spell out the real reason, and one part that the LGS pays immediately.Treebore said:
Another point: direct sales give the possibility to bridge the price gap to discounters somewhat. That's why you get some additional products with the direct sale.
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