Ptolus at Amazon?

[pogre]

It amazes me anyone is blaming Monte here. He's trying to do the right thing for the hobby industry. He's warning potential customers of a possible problem.

I admire Monte for having the guts to do what he wants in a BIG way. I hope the book is a huge success.

 

[Barak]

That is not true of all of us. I am waiting 3 extra months and paying full price to get some stuff I could buy online because I don't want my FLGS to go under. It is annoying, but I want a chance to browse the books before I buy and that is impossible (to the depth I want) for any online vendor.

Pdfs are different since they are so cheap. I would have to say that I am not happy with ~25% of the ones I have purchased in the last 2 years.

Put the decision to go out of his way to try and prevent Amazon to sell the book, or at least sell it using their regular marketing techniques doesn't prevent you from making that decision. In fact, it encourages it.

See, I understand Mr Cook's reasons for doing it, or at least I think I do. He wants to do what he can to support LGS. That, of course, is his right and all that. But it does give the impression of him also saying "people who buy my books at LGS are real fans, people who buy it at Amazon aren't!" I'm pretty sure (and I hope!) that he doesn't really think that, but I can't help but get that impression. And it's annoying.

 

[DaveMage]

It may not be so much to support the LGS (per se) as to get the book in the store. If the LGS refuses to buy such a high-priced item, sales goals might not be fulfilled.

Amazon (and other internet retailers) may sell a bunch, but maybe not enough by themselves to make the product a financial success.

 

[Barak]

It may not be so much to support the LGS (per se) as to get the book in the store. If the LGS refuses to buy such a high-priced item, sales goals might not be fulfilled.

Amazon (and other internet retailers) may sell a bunch, but maybe not enough by themselves to make the product a financial success.

But if Amazon didn't sell enough books, when compared to LGS, to make the book a success, the argument that the book being sold at Amazon hurts LGS becomes a bit shaky, no?

 

[DaveMage]

But if Amazon didn't sell enough books, when compared to LGS, to make the book a success, the argument that the book being sold at Amazon hurts LGS becomes a bit shaky, no?

No, though there are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Without knowing the expected sales numbers of both amazon and the local game stores, it's impossible to tell what makes the most sense. If it was believed that amazon would sell enough by itself to make the product a financial success, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

To illustrate what might be the case (and I'm completely making up numbers), if amazon can be expected to sell 500 units, but there's a print run of 2,500, that leaves 2,000 that must be sold elsewhere. (Well, 1,500 if we take out 500 preorders.) If the LG stores refuse to buy the other 1,500, Malhavoc has a problem... At the same time, if amazon is refused, and thus the game stores do buy them, that would only leave 500 left over, and this may entice the LG stores to actually order more product than they otherwise would, thus taking care of those leftover 500.

 

[BSF]

I think his point was that all the usual distributors / retailers should be allowed to stock Ptolus if they wanted to. I.e. the usual way this great thing we call capitalism works

Then it would be up to the customer to choose where he does his business. Not only Amazon like you suggest, but any place that wanted his business.

The FLGS in Finland is pretty expensive because they have a near monopoly - shenanigans like these that are done just to protect FLGS from competition only strengthen that monopoly. And there should be no question that monopoly is bad for the consumer.

Now, the situation is different in the states with more gaming shops, but Montes decision cost me the price difference between WW store and Amazon prices. It's not going to kill me, but it doesn't make much sense to me, either.

Actually, there are some disincentives for publishers to use the book distribution channel. Book distribution is brutal in that the big stores, Barnes & Noble, Borders and now Amazon, have a lot of negotiating room. If you sell through the book distribution channel, you have to be prepared to provide free shipping, including drop shipping to each location. You will need to be prepared to provide a deep discount. You will need to be prepared to extend your accounts receivable beyond 120 days, perhaps as much as 180 days. You may need to be prepared to settle your accounts receivable for pennies on the dollar if you want that cash flow back. You will also need to be prepared to accept returns of product that didn't move, and those returns are another hit to your cash flow.

This is true to a different extent with the hobby distribution channels, but it really isn't as vicious. Vicious enough to kill small publishers like Green Ronin! But not as vicious as I saw working at an independent bookstore for 4 years. I believe these are some of the reasons why Malhavoc would choose to be an imprint company rather than a full fledged publisher.

I have worked both at the FLGS level and the independent bookstore level. Truth being told here, I am surprised either business can exist in the onslaught driven by online and mass chain resellers. It gets even worse when one of the ways local stores reduce cost is by hiring less expensive labor. Labor that can barely stock the store or help the customer. Seriously, for a while I had an online reseller (small) that provided better service to me than any FLGS for the better part of a decade.

Sure, you have to get your product to the customer. But the mega resellers are at the point where they dictate end price and they don't want to reduce their profit. So they also dictate what they will buy a product at. If you aren't able to produce efficiently, your profits get squeezed out until you close your doors. Remember folks, the gaming market is not a big market. We are a niche audience. The loss of our sales to the big chains is less than a rounding error in the context of their overall sales. If you are a big enough company, you can probably make a strong go of it in the book distribution channel and do well. But WotC is the best positioned company to do that.

 

[BSF]

Companies shouldn't have to apologize for being efficient. If FLGSs can't compete, it is their own fault. Incompetent clerks, lousy service and high prices are what I've encountered in FLGSs. If they fixed those, maybe these anti-Amazon campaigns wouldn't be needed. When companies are efficient, they win, consumers wins. It's not a zero-sum game.

Absolutely! But right now there is nothing that adequately replaces the FLGS in the industry. Even EN World only has 40,000+ registered members. At any given time, there are 1000-1200 members online. I can walk into my LGS on a Friday night and see 30 people. I can walk into the other store in town at the same time and see another 15-20 people. So there are 30 more places like Albuquerque in the world, EN World has about the same size active community. If there are more, then EN World begins to look smaller and smaller.

I think this is a stopgap solution. Monte is simply trying things out while different community outlets grow and the possibility for a new distribution model might erupt. Or maybe not! But this is one way he can still release product while waiting to see where the "industry" goes.

It is mostly the distribution chains task to stay relevant as a distribution chain.

While this should be true, it isn't entirely true. There is a lot of inertia to overcome because the distribution chain exists for good historical reasons. The developments in technology have made it easier for producers of product to sidestep the dsitribution chain. But for many smaller businesses, even direct sales to the customer is still a significant impact on time and energy. PDF only publishers are able to do that somewhat successfully. Especially with the growth of RPGNow, DTRPG and the ENGS. But there is still a significant portion of the population that does not like PDF.

I'm not ready to say we are at a crisis point in the industry. But having watched a lot of conversations for the past couple of years, and having my own experience in various types of retail & distribution industries, I see a lot of potential for many smaller companies to decide it is not worth their time to remain in this business.

 

[BSF]

But part of the reason for the high price is the inefficient distribution model. Out of the $30 I pay for an RPG book, maybe 10 of those actually reach the people who make it. If companies could sell directly to customers, they could lower the price and get more money themselves.

My observation is that the publisher will get less. That will be the gross sales amount as well! Which means that is the money generated before the cost of publishing the book and doing business is factored in.

Selling directly to the customer will likely be the way things are done in the future. But we are at a pain point in the industry where it is not easy to sell directly to the customer. At least, it isn't to sell to the customer if the product isn't PDF. And if the product is PDF, you eliminate a good portion of your consumer base.

 

[pogre]

Selling directly to the customer will likely be the way things are done in the future. But we are at a pain point in the industry where it is not easy to sell directly to the customer. At least, it isn't to sell to the customer if the product isn't PDF. And if the product is PDF, you eliminate a good portion of your consumer base.

I agree completely. Direct sales is the next thing for the small company. An excellent example is Dwarven Forge. The folks at their booth at Origins claimed direct sales had saved their company.

 

[Turjan]

Actually, there are some disincentives for publishers to use the book distribution channel. Book distribution is brutal in that the big stores, Barnes & Noble, Borders and now Amazon, have a lot of negotiating room. If you sell through the book distribution channel, you have to be prepared to provide free shipping, including drop shipping to each location. You will need to be prepared to provide a deep discount. You will need to be prepared to extend your accounts receivable beyond 120 days, perhaps as much as 180 days. You may need to be prepared to settle your accounts receivable for pennies on the dollar if you want that cash flow back. You will also need to be prepared to accept returns of product that didn't move, and those returns are another hit to your cash flow.

Actually, I had the feeling that this was the real reason behind Monte's decision. Even if he thinks that he is doing the FLGS as a sales model a favor by restricting the sales to these shops, I suppose that his main reason is to simply cover his butt. The production costs of Ptolus will be pretty high. I suppose he will have to sell through all of his stock quickly in order to get out of the minus from producing the book. The regular book channels don't provide this quick turnover; it's game shops that immediately pay for their stuff. This will also be the reason for the "limited edition" thing; no way Malhavoc can afford having thousands of unsold Ptolus books sitting around.

These expensive books are a big risk for a small company. "A Game of Thrones" broke GoO's neck. I think that Monte simply wants to avoid a similar fate.


Just as an aside: I'm one of those people who usually buy their gaming books at amazon or similar online discounters. I don't use LGSs at all.