Ptolus at Amazon?

[Jaws]

Another thing, if he is so concerned about the LGS' why is he selling pre-orders? Every one he sells steals potential profit away from every LGS, it is the very reason many of the companies claim not to sell straight to the public. So why is Monte doing it if the LGS' survival is such a big concern for him? Could it be the much larger profit margin?

Crothian, you are right, I want the big discount, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty or wrong about it. That is OK, though. Now I am going to get the biggest discount of all, I'm not going to spend a single penny to own it. I think from now on I'll make a point of not owning anything being pre-sold by Monte and WW. To show my support for the book sellers, ALL of them.

This is from the Ptolus Preorder Program on Monte's site:

"Or, preorder from your retailer by August 1 and get a fee print copy of Night of Dissolution and free access to the Delver's Guild website!

Fill out this handy preorder reservation card and take it to your favorite retailer.

http://www.ptolus.com/images/PtolusPostCard_preorder.pdf "


Peace and smiles

j.

 

[Barak]

*snip excellent post explaining stuff*

Barak, I don't fault your mentality regarding Amazon. From the consumer perspective it is a wonderful outlet! I understand that. But there is a lot going on behind the scenes for any business. I have a slightly different perspective due to differing experiences in life. I agree that it would be cool to get Ptolus at Aamzon for a great price. But I can see many ways in which this would not be advantageous to Malhavoc, or White Wolf. Very few of them have to do with a discount to the customer. Most have to do with the discount to the reseller that might be demanded just to put your book in their store.

Obviously I don't have the full picture. I am not affiliated with any of the involved parties in any manner other than being a customer. But I do hope that I can share some of my experiences to demonstrate why this is a complex issue at a troubling time for our hobby.

Hey no problem, I understand there's a lot going on that I don't know about, which is at least half my reason for posting.

Let me ask a newbie question. Instead of simply not offering the book to book distributers (or whatever it's called ), would it have been possible to offer it to them, if they want it, without any extra considerations (all those things you mentioned)? Granted, by what you said, the distributors in question would have scoffed, and said "ah, keep your book!", but that simple difference would have without a doubt shifted the onus, no?

 

[Numion]

So yes, I agree with Crothian. This is about people getting mad because they thought they could get Ptolus at a hugely reduced price at Amazon.

Well D'UH!!! Of course I wouldn't be here whining if Amazons prices were the same as my FLGSs. It would be kinda moot, no?

Instead of utilizing the cheapest method of getting books to the people, Monte hung on to playing by the FLGSs rules. That cost me money. If what BardStephenFox is true, and Monte would make less money on selling through Amazon, that would be good enough reason for me to not whine about no Amazon.

But that's not what Monte gave as the reason. He said that the Amazon discounts are missing because he wants to throw a bone to the FLGSs. I don't want to throw a bone to the FLGSs - I don't need them that much.

 

[shaylon]

Crothian, you are right, I want the big discount, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty or wrong about it.

I don't think you should feel bad about this, if it is above your price point as is, then you shouldn't buy it, as you have stated. I misunderstood what you were getting at earlier, I thought you were actually offended by the fact that it wasn't going to be on amazon.

-Shay

 

[Barak]

I don't think you should feel bad about this, if it is above your price point as is, then you shouldn't buy it, as you have stated. I misunderstood what you were getting at earlier, I thought you were actually offended by the fact that it wasn't going to be on amazon.

-Shay

You -do- understand that this basically mean that you believe people who buy all their books at Amazon shouldn't play at all, because by playing, they are hurting the hobby?

Edit: I just realized after posting this that you might just be talking about Ptolus, which isn't (apparently) available at Amazon, and not about books in general, in which case I apologize.

Edit2: To clarify, I really, really don't care about the mythical hurt to LGS I make when I buy books at Amazon, since I don't even have a LGS, and the only place I possibly hurt is Waldenbooks, which is a big corporation in it's own right, and isn't really hurt by my not buying books there that often (I still -do- buy books there once in a while, impulsiively, much to my chagrin).

 

[pogre]

But.. Wouldn't direct sales (on a large scale, of course) -totally- destroy FLGs, which is pretty much the main reason Amazon is so despised?

I agree. I just think Dwarven Forge is a possible model for these smaller companies. It should be pointed out DF had a substantial market penetration before they went direct. The hobby distribution model will continue to have a place for some time, but there's no question the direct sales method hurts FLGSs.

There are a few hobby companies who start with the direct sales method and stick with it. Hirst Arts Castle Molds is the model I am most familiar with - Bruce Hirst has stayed with the direct sales model because it works for his product. He believes the price point demands direct sales for him to keep going and be successful.

These are small companies. There is no true economy of scale for them.

I'll admit the book trade is another can of worms.

 

[BSF]

Hey no problem, I understand there's a lot going on that I don't know about, which is at least half my reason for posting.

Let me ask a newbie question. Instead of simply not offering the book to book distributers (or whatever it's called ), would it have been possible to offer it to them, if they want it, without any extra considerations (all those things you mentioned)? Granted, by what you said, the distributors in question would have scoffed, and said "ah, keep your book!", but that simple difference would have without a doubt shifted the onus, no?

It is a good question and in an isolated environment, it would be a great solution! But those concessions are usually in contract language. As well, they are on an entire invoice, not just an individual product. Well, they could be on an individual product, but usually because of quantity! If you, as a reseller, buy a huge bulk, you expect a better discount right? Better than your normal discount.

Here in the US, it works out kind of weird. You would think a book publisher would have a lot of leverage with a reseller, any reseller, right? After all, what is the reseller going to do? Turn down the opportunity to have the New York Times Best Sellers in their store? (This is one argument I have heard on why publishers should dictate conditions. If the reseller doesn't agree, the reseller doesn't get to stock any of your product.) Except for one problem: It is a best sellers list! Publishers don't dictate the list, the consumers do! If you don't have your book in every Barnes & Noble, it will not be a best seller on the New York Times list. Because the big resellers were initially successful, and grew in size, they now grossly outnumber the independents. They have for years. Some of that growth likely came at seizing opportunities. Many businesses stumble once in a while. Publishers sometimes make a bad call on a book and a print run. When a big company turns around and helps the publisher through that stumble, that company then has more leverage to win concessions. After a long enough time, those concessions become normal behavior.

Sure, Malhavoc and White Wolf could tell the book distribution channel that there will be no special pricing or other concessions. The book channel would likely tell them to stuff it. From the distribution channel's perspective, publishers need them more. Especially if it is a small publisher. As I said earlier "The loss of our sales to the big chains is less than a rounding error in the context of their overall sales." When the bookstore I worked at stopped selling gaming books, it wasn't even noticed in our sales. *shrug* Nowadays I see WotC books back in the same bookstore. But I don't see other publishers. The book distribution channel can work for some companies. But how many of those are in the hobby right now?

 

[BSF]

But that's not what Monte gave as the reason. He said that the Amazon discounts are missing because he wants to throw a bone to the FLGSs. I don't want to throw a bone to the FLGSs - I don't need them that much.

Did he really say that or is that what most of us have extrapolated as his intent? I'm not quite clear myself actually! (And I don't have time to research it, my yard needs mowing.) But realize most business people don't like discussing the hows and whys of everything with their customer base. There is a significant chance it will do much more harm than good because it might sound like whining.

EDIT: Which is why I don't really expect any of the publishers or game store owners to actually post here in the thread. They might offer a correction if something stated is grossly wrong, but otherwise why would they weigh in? As much as it might be nice to clear the air, anything they say could be flipped back around and used against them, for as long as these digital words remain.

 

[Treebore]

This is from the Ptolus Preorder Program on Monte's site:

"Or, preorder from your retailer by August 1 and get a fee print copy of Night of Dissolution and free access to the Delver's Guild website!

Fill out this handy preorder reservation card and take it to your favorite retailer.

http://www.ptolus.com/images/PtolusPostCard_preorder.pdf "


Peace and smiles

j.

That is all well and good, but my nearest LGS is 54 miles away, so is a "bookstore". Only Wal-Mart is closer at 28 miles.

Plus it still doesn't change the fact that every pre-order WW/Monte sells is a nail in the coffin of LGS livelihood. At least that is what "they" keep guilt tripping us about.

 

[Barak]

It is a good question and in an isolated environment, it would be a great solution! But those concessions are usually in contract language. As well, they are on an entire invoice, not just an individual product. Well, they could be on an individual product, but usually because of quantity! If you, as a reseller, buy a huge bulk, you expect a better discount right? Better than your normal discount.

Here in the US, it works out kind of weird. You would think a book publisher would have a lot of leverage with a reseller, any reseller, right? After all, what is the reseller going to do? Turn down the opportunity to have the New York Times Best Sellers in their store? (This is one argument I have heard on why publishers should dictate conditions. If the reseller doesn't agree, the reseller doesn't get to stock any of your product.) Except for one problem: It is a best sellers list! Publishers don't dictate the list, the consumers do! If you don't have your book in every Barnes & Noble, it will not be a best seller on the New York Times list. Because the big resellers were initially successful, and grew in size, they now grossly outnumber the independents. They have for years. Some of that growth likely came at seizing opportunities. Many businesses stumble once in a while. Publishers sometimes make a bad call on a book and a print run. When a big company turns around and helps the publisher through that stumble, that company then has more leverage to win concessions. After a long enough time, those concessions become normal behavior.

Sure, Malhavoc and White Wolf could tell the book distribution channel that there will be no special pricing or other concessions. The book channel would likely tell them to stuff it. From the distribution channel's perspective, publishers need them more. Especially if it is a small publisher. As I said earlier "The loss of our sales to the big chains is less than a rounding error in the context of their overall sales." When the bookstore I worked at stopped selling gaming books, it wasn't even noticed in our sales. *shrug* Nowadays I see WotC books back in the same bookstore. But I don't see other publishers. The book distribution channel can work for some companies. But how many of those are in the hobby right now?

I think you missed my point. I fully agree that the book distributors would very most likely told them to stuff it. Honestly, for a book distributor, Ptolus is nothing. But in the gaming community, Ptolus is.. Well, probably medium-sized. So the ability to truly say "Well, we offered to have them distribute it the same way the hobby distributor do." would have meant something, in the gaming community. Instead we have "We didn't want the book distributors to have it, because it would have screwed over the LGS", which quite a few people view as a weak, at best, argument.

Arguably, simply making the offer, for reasons you stated, would have been an hassle, and maybe not worth it.