Pure speculation-multiclassing and magic

[RSKennan]

Oh, and Snu- Congrats on your first post and welcome to the boards.

I'm not sure how your idea would work- mind explaining it a bit more? It really does seem like one level of wizard would turn a high-leveled dumb fighter type into Elminster, albeit with lower leveled spells. I know my idea has the same problem to a lesser degree, though.

 

[Sammael]

Perhaps the spell level will correspond with the character level rather than the caster level.

That sounds nuts at first ("I'll just grab one level of wizard and take a level 25 spell"), but it could work out if a) You'd get something just about as good as a level 25 fighter (or rogue, or any other class), and b) There are some prerequisites for the more powerful high level spells, so you'd need multiple levels (but not the full 25) to get a really strong spell.

From what we've seen, they are doing the best to reinforce the archetypes. If they do as you are suggesting, they might as well throw the classes out of the window and go classless.

Which I think is plainly visible will not be the case.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Good point. That is what I am reading also, the four main types will be stronger, not weaker like they have progressively gotten in 3.5. But on the other hand, multiclassed spellcasters are obviously trouble, and something needs to be done, and I am sure it will be.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It's already been stated by one of the developers that "powers will be named after the levels you get them at". So, a spell you gain at 10th level is a 10th level spell. An attack you get as a fighter at 14th level is a 14th level attack.

And since the ideal goal is that you get something cool at EVERY level, then there will be 1-30th level spells.

As for mutliclassing, there is a quote out there by one of the devs that says that they are still testing their idea for multiclassing casters and it APPEARS to be working, but hasn't seen much testing yet.

 

[Snu]

Thanks for the welcome! I've lurked here for a bit, and the 4E speculation was too much fun to skip.

The thought was — If a level 24 fighter / level 1 wizard is going to be at all viable, what sort of abilities would the character need to have?

You'd want the character to have a tiny bit of useful magic. But a few level one spells would be darned near useless to a level 25 character, so they'd need to get some kind of higher level spell effect. In 4E, it sounds like the level up improvements for a 25th level fighter are better than in 3.5E, so the corresponding single wizard level would have to have a reasonably good benefit for anyone to bother.

On the other hand, getting a once/day Time Stop spell would be much too strong compared with gaining the benefits of a single fighter level. My guess is that, like in the Tome of Battle, the strongest abilities (both magical and nonmagical) will have prerequisites. So you couldn't just instantly learn Time Stop — But if you were willing to take (at a guess) five levels in wizard, and focused just on prerequisites of the Time Stop spell, you probably could. Of course, then you'd have five fewer levels of fighter, including all the corresponding epic level maneuvers. You'd be a substandard fighter (for level 25), but would have a handful of useful spells you could cast, though only in a single very focused direction in magic. So with prerequisites, you would reduce but not remove the advantages of sticking with a single class.

What I've read of the WotC posts have suggested that they're going to be promoting specific roles within combat for each character class, but I haven't read anything saying that characters will be discouraged from being dual class. Then again, I'm sure I haven't read every single WotC post.

 

[Selvarin]

What about the idea of 'gestalt' characters? (ala Unearthed Arcana)

They said that in 4e a multiclassed fighter/wizard won't be a 'crappy fighter and a crappy wizard'. Perhaps a tweaked version of gestaltism is what they have in mind. Maybe. And since their idea has been for every character's role to be strengthened/accentuated/ focused with each level, if something like that was the case then they'd probably rule out having more than two core classes. Sounds workable, because I currently don't see a good way to let a multi-classer to have approximate parity with a single-classer.

Question is, if that's the case (doing something like 1e or UE) what's in place to keep them from mopping the floor up with single-classers' faces?

Well....considering they said every class has abilities that can be used at will, per encounter, and per day, one way is to reduce the number of per encounter/per day abilities. Perhaps they start out the same but the number of additional usages take longer for a multi-classer--instead of getting extra uses at 5th level (for example) the multi-classer has to wait till 6th or 7th level. This could be useful whether or not 4e uses a form of the gestalt concept to handle MC'ing.

Other ways:

HD. Drop the highest HD of the two classes by one. For the sake of argument let's pretend they're still keeping wizard with the d4. (I know, they said 1st level PC's get more HP in 4e but roll with me on this one.) I pick a 1st level Fighter/1st level wizard. In 3.* It would be d10 + d4. Using UE's gestaltism the dice chosen for HD would be d10. In a revised version the HD would be dropped down to d8.

Skill Points: Pool the base amount at 1st level and divide by 1/2. Thereafter the SP's/level would be based on the most favorable allowance--a fighter/wizard's skill points/level would get 4 + ability bonus, a rogue/wizard would get 8 + ability bonus/level. Since you're spending for two classes this won't be a problem.

Spells: Since it sounds like a spell point system is coming in with 4e, treat the MC-ing spellcaster as arcane/divine level X-2 for the purposes of spell points. Thus they can sill cast decent spells but they may not be able to outlast a focused single-classer without having a high Int score.

Just a few incomplete thoughts. And I know very well I'm falling into the trap of thinking 3* when trying to figure out what 4.* will look like but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

 

[FireLance]

I think we may see some or all of the following for multiclassed characters in 4e:

Caster level could increase with levels in other classes (say, 1 per 2 levels, as with initiator levels in Bo9S), and characters could have to access spells based on this caster level (so that a 4th-level fighter taking a level of wizard could start out with access to 2nd-level spells).

Assuming 4e uses a Bo9S slot-like system for readied abilities (whether maneuvers or spells), one interesting possibility would be for the number of slots to depend on character level, while class determines which abilities he has access to and can fill his slots with. So, a purely martial character would fill his slots with maneuvers, a pure spellcaster would fill his slots with spells, and a multiclassed character would have access to both maneuvers and spells and would be able to fill his slots with either.

If implemented, talent trees could be another way to mix and match abilities. For example, there could be a "mystic warrior" talent tree for the fighter class that grants access to some spells and the ability to cast spells in armor. Such an approach could create a duskblade-like character, while a "warrior mage" talent tree for the wizard class could grant access to bonuses to attack rolls (not necessarily BAB) and some maneuvers, and create something more like a battle sorcerer. Of course, a true multi-classed fighter-wizard would probably pursue both paths.

 

[Snu]

ICaster level could increase with levels in other classes (say, 1 per 2 levels, as with initiator levels in Bo9S), and characters could have to access spells based on this caster level ....

That sounds like a good possibility to me. It would be consistent with cross-class skill levels from the Star Wars book as well as with the initiator levels. And it might well provide useful abilities to a cross classing character without being overly powerful.

 

[Khaalis]

Just to jump in late on this topic...

I have a feeling that 4E might be taking a page from other OGL/d20 systems that have evolved since 3.X such as GRR's True20. I am already seeing a lot of references to lead me to believe that some of True20's ideas have made it into 4E. (Did anyone else catch the reference to "Minion" monster rules in the latest DEV preview?).

Since it appears that 4E is going to be heavily reliant on the talent tree ideas, and that there are no dead levels, I am thinking that "classes" will be much like Roles in True20. Your class grants you access to a set of talent trees that granting you the options of abilities that relate specifically to that class's defined role (tank, striker, controller, etc.). Thus for example, fighters get weapon talents, wizards get spell talents.

When multiclassing, you simply access the new class's talent trees. Thus a Fighter who takes a level of Wizard gains access to the Wizard's talent trees (and thus can get their spell ability(ies) for that level). Granted I think the classes will still remain more D&D, granting more than simply one ability a level like True20, so the Fighter may also pick up some other basic abilities as well by taking a level of wizard (such as a familiar?).

I completely agree that Caster Level will, instead of being linked to Class Level, be more a function of Character Level. For example, to make a Fighter who dabbles in magic effective, their caster level needs to maintain pace with the rest of the game.

To do this, I would expect to see Caster Level take on a roll like BAB, with caster classes getting a +1 CL per Character Level and other classes increasing CL by a fractional increase, perhaps something similar to a "Medium BAB". It could, as mentioned, also be similar to the "Non-Class" advancement rules from the Tome of Battle. Thus a partial caster will never be quite as powerful as a full caster, but can still be very viable. The more levels in the caster class, the more "spells/magical abilities" the character will have as well.

In this manner you could have a character that has only 1 level of Wizard, gaining all that a 1st level wizard will acquire in respect to 'Per Day,' 'Per Encounter,' 'Memorized' and 'At Will' abilities, but instead of remaining stuck as a 1st level caster their entire career, they instead can use this small selection of magical talents at a Caster Level that continues to grow with the character.

 

[RSKennan]

Just to jump in late on this topic...

To do this, I would expect to see Caster Level take on a roll like BAB, with caster classes getting a +1 CL per Character Level and other classes increasing CL by a fractional increase, perhaps something similar to a "Medium BAB". It could, as mentioned, also be similar to the "Non-Class" advancement rules from the Tome of Battle. Thus a partial caster will never be quite as powerful as a full caster, but can still be very viable. The more levels in the caster class, the more "spells/magical abilities" the character will have as well.

In this manner you could have a character that has only 1 level of Wizard, gaining all that a 1st level wizard will acquire in respect to 'Per Day,' 'Per Encounter,' 'Memorized' and 'At Will' abilities, but instead of remaining stuck as a 1st level caster their entire career, they instead can use this small selection of magical talents at a Caster Level that continues to grow with the character.

I've thought something like this might be a good solution in 3.5. This sounds very right, actually. The only question I have is what happens with the Arcane/divine split? Is a caster level a caster level no matter the source?