Pursuing Avenger: How will you let your enemy moves away from you?

[Nifft]

Vicious property seem to be worth considering. And Power Attack feat, maybe?

Bloodiron is the new Vicious -- "only" d10s on a crit, but the damage happens twice.

Power Attack is better for Rangers (who get a lot of smaller attacks, and thereby get a lot more use out of small extra damage boosts), but it's not terrible for Avengers. I'd spend feats on a Superior weapon, Weapon Focus, Expertise, and boosting class features before I spent one on Power Attack.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Thundershield]

It's amusing how the Avenger's Censure is relegated as a "control" feature when the new Censure from Divine Power is nothing but a damage feature and the class is hurting for damage dealing.

Sure you can just stick with Oath of Enmity as your damage booster, but if you do, your damage will likely be awful, even compared with Leaders or Defenders. As no matter how much you can disable your OoE target, Dead is still the best disabler to slap on a target so you can move on and kill the next one instead of hoping your party can finish up the other monsters and come help you with this one...

No, there's a bunch of tactics (and very interesting ones, I might add) that make the Pursuit Avenger more fun to play by challenging your ability to make the target flee for their lives than simply having the target not run.

Overwhelming Strike (Avenger At-Will 1): Peel the opponent off your Paladin or Swordmage buddy and step back. Now the target has to choose between going for you and triggering the defender's Divine Challenge/Sanction or Swordmage Aegis and suffer a -2 penalty to the attack, or go back to the defender and trigger your Censure. This is exactly the kind of lose/lose situations you want to force the enemy into.

Avenging Echo (Avenger Encounter 1): Doesn't do that much damage and gets a bonus for the wrong Censure, but it's still a way of forcing your enemy to move away or suffer damage.

Bond of Foresight (Avenger Daily 5): Causing the enemy to provoke an attack whenever they attack you might convince them to go find other targets.

Executioner's Cloak (Avenger Daily 5): Invisibility makes you a tricky target, especially if you're trained in Stealth and can spend your move action becoming Hidden from the target.

Aspect of Agility (Avenger Utility 6): Improves your defenses, making it harder for your target to hit you. Remember to discourage your DM from attacking you by bragging about your amazing defenses.

Light of the Avenging Sun (Avenger Encounter 13): Again, a -4 penalty makes you a vastly less attractive target than your allies who are just over there. *hint-hint, nudge-nudge*

Sequestering Word (Avenger Encounter 13): This is a ranged implement attack, but still has potential, and it's finally the right Censure! And the promise of damage if they end their turn adjacent to you is usually a nifty way of convincing them to look elsewhere.

Aspect of Fury (Avenger Daily 15): Like with Sequestering Word above, except this also applies to enemies attacking you and lasts for the full encounter. Just perfect!

Oath of Divine Lightning (Avenger Daily 15): Pity that the target will likely suffer the damage aura rather than an OA, and that a save can end this, but we're still on the right track. Stack those damage auras and watch them run for their lives.

Temple of Respite (Avenger Daily 19): A pity with this one that it doesn't move with you, but raising your defenses (and bragging about it) is still a good way to discourage monsters from attacking you.

Indomitable Resolve (Avenger Utility 22): Perfect bragging tool. Keep discouraging your DM by letting him know that even if he hits you, you can reduce the damage to 0. Only usable once, though, so if he finally calls your bluff and you decide to use it, it's gone for the day.

Avenger's Shield (Avenger Encounter 23): Again a ranged implement attack, but the threat of blinding your target if it turns on you can be good discouragement.

Aspect of Terror (Avenger Daily 29): Stunning the target if it attacks you is a splendid deterrent and you get to push other enemies away so you can enjoy your OoE double-roll in peace, but again, a save can end the fun and it's a non-melee implement attack... and there are other less Censure-helping and yet attractive options at level 29.

Kudos to Ignis Fatuus of the WotC boards for the original list.

But see how this playstyle can be really challenging and at the same time rewarding (you get your Censure bonus and the joy of success whenever your target runs off in fear)? This is the playstyle WotC missed out on in Divine Power. The vast majority of powers in that book would mess up this playstyle, so just ignore that supplement.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's amusing how the Avenger's Censure is relegated as a "control" feature when the new Censure from Divine Power is nothing but a damage feature and the class is hurting for damage dealing.

Let's compare Barbarians and Avengers.

Barbarians can add 1d6 to their damage at heroic level. Given they're usually using a 2d6 weapon, that's a fair amount of damage added.

Avengers add approximately 50% more hits, which means they multiply all their damage by 50% in the long term. 50% with a 2d6 weapon is more than 1d6, given you must also multiply enhancements, attribute bonuses, and other such things.

The class IS not good at putting heavy damage on one target in one round... however the only targets you're supposed to be able to one shot are minions, so ability to pile on damage isn't relevant... however ability to be more accurate IS.

When the combat goes longer than one round, however, the Avenger will consistantly produce damage, rarely missing.

The irony is, of course, seeing as they're using a heavy weapon and have access to high [w] for many of their powers they're likely to hit huge damage numbers too. Does -your- class have a 9[W] power?

 

[Thundershield]

Let's compare Barbarians and Avengers.

Barbarians can add 1d6 to their damage at heroic level. Given they're usually using a 2d6 weapon, that's a fair amount of damage added.

Avengers add approximately 50% more hits, which means they multiply all their damage by 50% in the long term. 50% with a 2d6 weapon is more than 1d6, given you must also multiply enhancements, attribute bonuses, and other such things.

The class IS not good at putting heavy damage on one target in one round... however the only targets you're supposed to be able to one shot are minions, so ability to pile on damage isn't relevant... however ability to be more accurate IS.

When the combat goes longer than one round, however, the Avenger will consistantly produce damage, rarely missing.

The irony is, of course, seeing as they're using a heavy weapon and have access to high [w] for many of their powers they're likely to hit huge damage numbers too. Does -your- class have a 9[W] power?

Cute how falling back on Final Oath makes that seem impressive, and sure the stuff from PH2 is decent, but yes - yes, the Barbarian has a 9[W] power, Rage Strike - and that one doesn't give your enemy a +5 bonus to attacks against you. 9[W] is only fair, anyway, if you don't get any other damage bonus, whereas the Rogue gets 7[w] and double Sneak Attack (and potentially crit damage - say hello to Daggermasters with Bloodiron Daggers for 2x12d10).

Most of the powers from Divine Power, however, are terribly lackluster or outright counterproductive. Speed and Stillness and Day's First Light both do little damage (even for 1st-level encounter powers) and what secondary effects they have will likely not come into play as your Censure of Pursuit already keeps your target from going anywhere. Sure, one lets you shift around, but that's hardly rocking anyone's world - so it's basically just hyped-up melee basic attacks. Sad, isn't it?

 

[DracoSuave]

9[w] tho gives you +5 to hit -them-. And then +5 to hit -them- for the rest of the battle that stacks with that first +5 which is what we call 'Being an Avenger.'

You -really- underestimate the value of Oath. You're complaining that Avengers aren't accurate... when they are the most accurate class in the game. Oath does -amazing- things.

Once you factor Oath in, you'll see that it's not so bad -at all-.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Cute how falling back on Final Oath makes that seem impressive, and sure the stuff from PH2 is decent, but yes - yes, the Barbarian has a 9[W] power, Rage Strike - and that one doesn't give your enemy a +5 bonus to attacks against you. 9[W] is only fair, anyway, if you don't get any other damage bonus, whereas the Rogue gets 7[w] and double Sneak Attack (and potentially crit damage - say hello to Daggermasters with Bloodiron Daggers for 2x12d10).

Daggermasters don't really come into it. Chances are AP will only be used to follow up on a knockout (as an example).

Also - using daggers is one of the worst things to do, because that 7d10 (superior crossbow) becomes 7d4

 

[Thundershield]

Daggermasters don't really come into it. Chances are AP will only be used to follow up on a knockout (as an example).

Also - using daggers is one of the worst things to do, because that 7d10 (superior crossbow) becomes 7d4

Except the superior crossbow is much less likely to crit if you're a Daggermaster. That kinda was the point I was making by mentioning the Daggermaster. And if you're going to use a big daily like Assassin's Point, you better have Meditation of the Blade running, so make that 7d6 (plus a good chance of dealing 10d8 extra, instead of 5d8 with the crossbow).

9[w] tho gives you +5 to hit -them-. And then +5 to hit -them- for the rest of the battle that stacks with that first +5 which is what we call 'Being an Avenger.'

You -really- underestimate the value of Oath. You're complaining that Avengers aren't accurate... when they are the most accurate class in the game. Oath does -amazing- things.

Once you factor Oath in, you'll see that it's not so bad -at all-.

No, you don't get the +5 on the Final Oath attack. The "Effect:" entry is listed below the "Hit:", meaning it is resolved after the attack. And getting a +5 bonus to hit your target is relatively redundant on a class, which only redeeming feature is that it's already good at hitting (and has good defenses), while the monster you attack can use that +5 bonus just fine to overcome your high defenses. That +5 to both of you is more of a downside to you than to the monster.

As for comparing damage, let's have an overview (all things being equal, with ranges going from the least plausible amount at heroic to the highest steady amount at epic):

Rogue: High attack bonus, 1d4 to 2d10 plus 2d8 to 5d8 damage
Avenger: High attack bonus (Oath of Enmity statistically equates a +4 bonus to attack rolls), 1d10 to 4d6 damage
Ranger: Normal attack bonus, two attacks, 1d8 to 2d10 damage twice plus 1d8 to 3d8 damage once
Barbarian: Normal attack bonus, 1d10 to 4d6 plus 1d6 to 3d6 damage
Sorcerer: Normal attack bonus, ranged, 1d8 to 2d10 plus 4 to 14 damage
Warlock: Normal attack bonus, ranged, 1d6 to 2d10 plus 1d6 to 3d6 damage

Doesn't look that hot, really. Now if you added the bonus damage from the Censures, we'd be talking, but alas, that is supposedly only a control tool...

 

[Garthanos]

I think power attack is a trap... Statistically it seems a losing option for anyone maybe if you overmatch your adversaries defenses and your attacks are very weak it is slightly better than normal.

 

[Vengeful]

I recently did a statistical analysis of class features w/ weapon of choice of Barbarian, Rogue, TWF Ranger, and Avenger and found that they all peaked at about ~45 DPR. Mind you, I didn't add in feats and paragon paths.

It wasn't until class specific damage feats and (importantly) TWF feats were introduced that the Ranger and Rogue really took off. So when you look at the Avenger, know that it isn't the missing "striker damage" that is holding it back, it is the lack of feat support for the clas and for two handed weapons and the lack of pure striker Paragon Paths.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think power attack is a trap... Statistically it seems a losing option for anyone maybe if you overmatch your adversaries defenses and your attacks are very weak it is slightly better than normal.

Well, you'd be surprised.

The thing is, at any given level, your attack bonus and your damage from your weapon doesn't -really- change that much (barring the occasional buff). They're constants.

So, in excel you can make a spreadsheet, and calculate what the average DPR is for a given AC for both pre-and-post power attack.

This tells you which is more optimal, and you'll find that there is a sweet spot that monsters have where one is better than the other--and it isn't always a non-trivial AC either (one where it is either too high to be found at your level, or too low to be on monsters that are threats).

Avenger's DPR construction tho is a bit more complicated tho... That -2 to hit can turn out to be less than -2, which means that Power Attack is even more attractive for an Avenger. On the other hand, it could turn out worse...

For example, if you have to roll a 10 or better to hit, the Avenger's change to hit is actually .55+(.55 * .45). Lowering that by two makes it 12 or better to hit, which becomes .45+(.55 * .45). That's a +2 difference...

But if you needed an 8 to hit, then it turns into .65+(.65*.35) - (.55+(.55*.45)) or 0.8775 - 0.7975, or 8%, which is slightly less unfavorable.

So the value of Power Attack isn't something you can say without calculation for your own character. If the Power Attack sweet spot for your dude is realistic, then you can make a judgement whether it is worth taking, and you can even calculate how much DPR it adds to your character.