Pushing the 4th edition envelope

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], that healing surge-based economy idea is really elegant. I like that a lot.

Thanks. I still can't give you XP: you'll have to stop posting good ideas!

Covered. Good luck getting [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] to stop posting good ideas

 

[Balesir]

One thing we have in my home game, which is pretty central to our playstyle and what it produces, is a Healing Surge economy.

Interesting ideas. I'm already considering adding something like the "drama point" from Hillfolk - you earn them for conceding some purely dramatic point; a promise, say, or forgiveness. Maybe these could be surges, too? Might work.

I forsee a bit of an issue when "each time you *spend* (as opposed to lose) a healing surge you get X" abilities. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], do you find any need to increase the bonus at Paragon/Epic tiers? Surges seem to gain uses, then, anyway.

In a related system, I'm also pondering on giving APs for skill challenge failures. This might reduce the pressure to 'always use the best skill' while adding drama to challenges by tempting a "well, two failures is OK - we don't fail until 3" approach. One use of the AP might be a (harder) roll to cancel the failure, as per the Essentials skill challenge rules on edges.

Interesting nest of interconnected systems - needs careful consideration, I think.


P.S. I can't xp Manbearcat, either. Maybe some sort of repulsion field is at work?

 

[Garthanos]

@Manbearcat, that healing surge-based economy idea is really elegant. I like that a lot.

Thanks. I still can't give you XP: you'll have to stop posting good ideas!

A part of me has wanted to collapse the resources in 4e for a simpler economy
healing surges seem a natural target, item dailies are another thing which feels
like a patchy add on/Why have multiple daily resources to represent heroic energy. Focusing more on a singular element could bring on elegance, perhaps a new name for Heroic reserves, other things like action points and encounter powers seem to also be from the same conceptual pool.

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=80924]fjw70[/MENTION], [MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION], and [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], thank you guys for the kind words. its pretty easy to implement and provides an aesthetic that myself and my players are familiar with and appreciative others. If folks want to fiddle around with it, they might find some fine. It is, of course, "metagamey" so it won't work for all tables.

Interesting ideas. I'm already considering adding something like the "drama point" from Hillfolk - you earn them for conceding some purely dramatic point; a promise, say, or forgiveness. Maybe these could be surges, too? Might work.

I forsee a bit of an issue when "each time you *spend* (as opposed to lose) a healing surge you get X" abilities. @Manbearcat , do you find any need to increase the bonus at Paragon/Epic tiers? Surges seem to gain uses, then, anyway.

In a related system, I'm also pondering on giving APs for skill challenge failures. This might reduce the pressure to 'always use the best skill' while adding drama to challenges by tempting a "well, two failures is OK - we don't fail until 3" approach. One use of the AP might be a (harder) roll to cancel the failure, as per the Essentials skill challenge rules on edges.

Interesting nest of interconnected systems - needs careful consideration, I think.


P.S. I can't xp Manbearcat, either. Maybe some sort of repulsion field is at work?

Hey Balesir. I think your idea above (gaining a resource for the concession of a dramatic conflict/issue) is exactly what we're after here.

With respect to how the Healing Surge economy manifests at my table, certainly the scaling of attack vs defense and especially skill checks versus target DCs goes a wee bit wobbly as the game progresses. However, I didn't want to get too fiddly with something like + 1/tier and I don't really like that way that would have affected the non-scaling saving throw system (which of course could be siloed away from attacks and skill checks if someone wanted to). We mostly just wanted something very simple that interfaces with the 3 systems easily and provides the aesthetic that we were looking for. A + 2 untyped does that well enough. The first option is primarily used for (in SWAG corresponding frequency of occurence):

1) Saving Throw bonus for particularly punitive effects (stunned, weakened, blinded, restrained typically).
2) To ensure auto-success at the Medium DC (typically...sometimes hard) when the modifier puts the passive check within 2 of passing the DC.
3) When a hit is really needed to afflict a game-changing status effect.
4) To offset Soldier + 2 AC bonus or a negative to attack that has been inflicted upon them (most time Mark or passive - 2 from an Aura).

Many times, you will see 2 above coupled with stepping down the DC from Medium to Low to allow for an untrained Skill (with a decent attribute modifier, item bonus, power bonus or some combo thereof) to be an auto-success. Those combined will give me two tokens to spend (a lot of times I use them to up future Skill DCs by 2) and the investiture of 3 Healing Surges is intensive. Nonetheless, its a fairly common play in my game when the players really want the fictional positioning to change in a positive way (eg the stakes are high). They will often have something particular in mind and I'll let them narrate their success (and then complicate their lives with something else if the conflict - Skill Challenge - is still undecided).

Concerning your XP abilities, you may want to consult Scotty on the Engineering Decks. Its likely on his end. Those fickle Dilithium Crystals and all!

 

[Dungeoneer]

@Kamikaze Midget The 'token to negate conditions' system you describe reminds me of a mechanic I'd jotted down some notes about long ago. My idea was similar to the escalation die (from Dungeon World?), but the idea was that PCs couldn't use encounter powers until a certain round #, and couldn't use daily powers until a certain round #. In other words, they had to build up to their cool stuff (which is where the majority of player-inflicted conditions are found). My theory was this would encourage more use of page 42 improvised actions & explorting the terrain features early in the fight, and allow the monster a little time to do its cool stuff before getting shut down by conditions. I think I called it adrenaline or limit break or something like that.

You know in 13th Age there are definitely powers that can only be activated for certain values of the escalation die. Having conditions get more severe as the die increases would be pretty straightforward. If you were going to use an escalation die in your 4e game I think this is a good idea.

 

[Balesir]

Hey Balesir. I think your idea above (gaining a resource for the concession of a dramatic conflict/issue) is exactly what we're after here.

Hey - Hillfolk is (another) one of those recent games that is well worth a look, if you are interested in new approaches to RPGing.

With respect to how the Healing Surge economy manifests at my table, certainly the scaling of attack vs defense and especially skill checks versus target DCs goes a wee bit wobbly as the game progresses. However, I didn't want to get too fiddly with something like + 1/tier and I don't really like that way that would have affected the non-scaling saving throw system (which of course could be siloed away from attacks and skill checks if someone wanted to). We mostly just wanted something very simple that interfaces with the 3 systems easily and provides the aesthetic that we were looking for. A + 2 untyped does that well enough.

Gotcha - that makes perfect sense. On balance, then, a blanket +2 seems the best option, to me.

Concerning your XP abilities, you may want to consult Scotty on the Engineering Decks. Its likely on his end. Those fickle Dilithium Crystals and all!

I'll ask him to beam me some up

Freaky weird physics fact - I was recently reading how antimatter is actually indistinguishable from "normal" matter that is travelling backwards through time. Blew my mind.

You know in 13th Age there are definitely powers that can only be activated for certain values of the escalation die. Having conditions get more severe as the die increases would be pretty straightforward. If you were going to use an escalation die in your 4e game I think this is a good idea.

Oooooh - that is a really interesting idea!

Maybe have "sequences" of conditions - Attack Penalty : Dazed : Stunned, for example, or Slowed : Immobilised : Stunned(?) - that are "capped" by Escalation Die value. When a power is used that can do a higher condition, it only does tha lower one unlass the Escalation Die is high enough?

 

[Manbearcat]

Hey - Hillfolk is (another) one of those recent games that is well worth a look, if you are interested in new approaches to RPGing.

Looks very intriguing and I'm a big fan of Law's work so I'll probably end up with it here shortly. Character creation looks similar to Fate. Conflict Resolution looks similar to DitV (in procedure, not aesthetic). It obviously has a tight focus on the sort of play it is looking to produce (the evolution of interpersonal conflict and how that affects each party and the whole in a world ordered around strife and conflict). I suspect it pulls it off well. Thanks for the heads up!

If you have any experience, your take would be appreciated.

I'll ask him to beam me some up

He may not have the power, captain!

 

[cavalier973]

I was inspired by @Kamikaze Midget to start a thread about how I'd tweaked 4e to get an "old school" feel to my campaigns. Beyond that, I would like for this thread to serve as a discussion place for some of the more radical/creative adaptations of 4e rules to achieve a certain play style.

Subtract 2 points from every ability score during character creation (before racial bonuses). Instead of the standard array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, each character gets 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, adds racial bonuses, and goes from there.

Etc.

 

[eternalsandwyrm]

I have experimented with two-hit minions (let's call them mooks). They have an hp threshold of 5+level. If you damage them and meet or exceed the threshold then you kill them out right. If you do less than the threshold then you bloody them. Any damage to a bloodied mook kills them. Also they do twice the damage of a minion.

i do something very similar, but i made it less complicated. normal minion rules, but it always 2 hit kills. i dont call them anything different and all my minions use this rule. it inspires a little more far bcuz they can get CA at least once before dying and controllers cant just wipe them all out with one encounter.

 

[Campbell]

If I had my way I would divorce resource replenishment from something that happens automatically to something that is earned in the scope of play. Many of the other games that I like (Burning Wheel, Demon: The Descent, Blood and Smoke, FATE) have resource and reward systems that require players to take risks with their characters in order to replenish their resources. I'd like to implement abilities that depend on a player taking thematically appropriate actions (most likely based on class and sub build) in order to make use of their more powerful abilities. I haven't done a lot of design work here, but if I was going to make a 4e Fantasy Heartbreaker that would be my focus.

Another idea for combat in particular is to have a resource that builds on turn by turn basis so that as combat moves forward it actually gets more interesting, rather than less.