D&D 5E Q&A 10/17/13 - Crits, Damage on Miss, Wildshape

[Mistwell]

Are you suggesting toxins don't cause tissue damage?

Some harmful inhaled gases don't cause tissue damage.

 

[Klaus]

Hit Points have always meant two things in D&D: sheer physical toughness (as is the case with, say, a door's hit points), and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one (the reason why characters gain hit points as they level). The latter is a combination of dodging, parrying, luck and other factors. When you lose hit points, you lose some of your ability to "turn a serious blow into a less serious one", until you lose your final hp, and that final blow got past your defenses in a catastrophic way.

A fighter that deals damage on a miss makes attacks that, even if they don't connect, hinder an opponent's ability to "turn a serious blow into a less serious one". Whether that opponent is a bandit that is getting tired, or an immortal flitting fey that is running out of places to dodge.

 

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=23484]If an immortal creature can be killed, it can also be worn down.

But by wounds, not by fatigue.

What else does its hit point loss represent?

Whatever else they represent, hit point loss also represents some degree of wounding. The amount of wound is not proportional to the hit point loss, but one never occurs without the other. I've already provided text from the rules that demonstrate that.

If a creature has high AC, sucks to be it - it is being attacked by an opponent who can wear it down.

This of course makes sense of the high AC is the result of being able to deflect blows. It makes no since in the general case of an AC that represents the ability to avoid blows. In this case, no wearing down is taking place. By your 'damage = fatigue' model, it's the guy swinging the sword who should be losing hit points on a miss!

If a creature does bonus poison damage on a hit, and it misses, it wouldn't deal the poison damage because the trigger would not have been satisfied. I don't see the issue here.

No, I don't imagine you would. After all, the rules are clear, right?

In that case, I'm surprised that you are claiming that damage on a miss is at odds with the D&D tradition...

Well, all tradition prior to 4e, when the sacred cows were slain and an edition was developed for the sake of those that hated the old traditions.

 

[Celebrim]

Some harmful inhaled gases don't cause tissue damage.

What?? This sort of assassination of logic is the reason I've little desire to participate in this thread. Neurons aren't dying? Cell membranes aren't rupturing? Hemoglobin isn't being destroyed? What is the mechanism of the toxicity if it isn't actually causing physical harm?

But fine, you want to say that poisons don't have a detrimental effect on human tissue, then I'll simply say, "Ok, fine, all those cases where the gas doesn't cause tissue damage (asphyxiation through carbon dioxide poisoning?) are traditionally modeled as 'save or die' rather than hit point loss." This is why you are either good (unwounded) or dead when encountering that gas.

 

[Celebrim]

I notice the implicit assumption here that 4e is not part of the D&D tradition.

Per my standards of what makes up D&D, 4e slew too many sacred cows to be considered part of mainline D&D. It is, to extend that metaphor, a heretical offshoot. To those that enjoy it, I wish you well. If you want to consider yourself part of the D&D tradition, well, that's your decision. But I'm of a more 'orthodox sect'.

(@TwoSix already noticed that 4e players, on your account, aren't roleplayers.)

I have a story about that, but I can't really go in to it without edition warring. For now, I'll simply point to the other thread about rule sets that encourage role play, and say that fundamentally nothing in the rules determines whether a group role plays or not. The decision to role play is a choice a group makes and rules can't really force it to happen.

In 4e the tiny fey you refer to would be minions, and therefore immune to all miss damage.

I've already accounted for this sort of exception based design. However, the hit die of the example doesn't really matter. The creatures immune to fatigue could have 12HD if that makes the example more effective for you.

Also, on hits points and physical damage, you haven't explained what you think is happening in AD&D when a target suffers hit point loss due to psionic attack.

I don't really have to. It's already been explained to you. First editions says quite explicitly what is happening in the rules, though I don't have a quote handy. If you truly believe the damage from an illusion is real, then it is real and you really take wounds. In the case of a psionic attack, like psionic blast or psionic crush - the rules are quite clear that non-psionic are not immune precisely because a physical assault on the brain and body is occurring and physical damage can result.

 

[Ratskinner]

Let me just say, as someone who isn't a big fan of HP as a mechanic, I have found the last several pages very entertaining.

 

[Mistwell]

What?? This sort of assassination of logic is the reason

You have a choice. You can use hyperbolic language like that quote, "assassination of logic" (which is ironic given you're complaining about whether all poisons cause tissue damage or not), BUT, then you cannot whine like this

I've little desire to participate in this thread.

Remember when I twisted your arm and forced you to read and post to this thread? Remember when I counseled you to get upset when you felt someone was wrong on the internet?

Me neither.

You don't get to toss out that level of hyperbolic insult AND whine about not wanting to participate. It's your choice. Take it or leave it. But, don't insult people and then whine when you don't like what they say so much it makes you not want to post. You can choose to do that...and if you're just in a mood to insult, it's probably the wisest course of action. Someone's bound to be so wrong again in this thread it will again make you angry enough to insult them too.

 

[pemerton]

Per my standards of what makes up D&D, 4e slew too many sacred cows to be considered part of mainline D&D. It is, to extend that metaphor, a heretical offshoot.

Well, all tradition prior to 4e, when the sacred cows were slain and an edition was developed for the sake of those that hated the old traditions.

You really think that someone who has been playing D&D for over 20 years, and who enjoys 4e because it delivers more of what D&D always promised than any earlier edition, hates the D&D tradition?

Presumably you also think that Wagner hated classical music, and that Joyce hated the literary tradition to which he belonged.

 

[bogmad]

I thought the solution to automatic damage was just to say "if you miss by less than X" the target takes the strength mod damage.

I don't have time [ok, the patience] to read all of the thread to see if that was touched on yet.
Is the problem that there's somehow too much math or immersion breaking involved in that solution?

It does seem kinda silly to say that if a fighter has Great Weapon Fighting then it is impossible for anything to dodge a two handed weapon attack without at the least being very fatigued by the effort, should the attack go wild.

 

[MJS]

It does seem kinda silly to say that if a fighter has Great Weapon Fighting then it is impossible for anything to dodge a two handed weapon attack without at the least being very fatigued by the effort, should the attack go wild.

that is silly, which is why the designers are very clear that this ability, if used, is to be ADJUDICATED BY THE DM.... in that very FAQ they say a 1 can still truly miss as well.

I think a lot of folks, myself included at first, are looking at this in a VERY black and white fashion, whereas the tone of the designers is nothing of the sort. Its just an idea to run with. All the stupid possibilities that might result are why the game has a DM.