D&D 5E Q&A 10/17/13 - Crits, Damage on Miss, Wildshape

That IS an interesting result, and probably results in an interesting story!
I can see that working for some, but it doesn't resolve the larger issue where other gaming tables simply don't like that new story, or fail to come up with a story altogether for lack of interest, effort or priority.

Maybe the high-level fighter was toying with it.
I personally cannot recall a single example of a PC toying with an enemy. And that's not a story I like. Nor do I like to reboot my character's motivation. If you mean that it's "good enough for you", I wouldn't argue with that. It's not good enough for me, much less perfect and coherent, and what is interesting and challenging to you seems contrived to me.

Maybe the enemy was focused on the more fearsome fighter, and that let the low-level guy through.
Maybe, except that the fiction of a fearsome fighter's unrelenting assault *always* causing damage now doesn't apply to either fighter. The high level fighter still doesn't cause morale/fatigue damage, and the low level fighter hits on a miss due to a sort of opportunity attack, not an unrelenting assault (BTW, an AoO-style attackw ould arguably would apply equally or more to a finess fighter than a heavy weapon fighter, except that it wouldn't because only Great Weapon fighting causes hit on a miss). These kinds of on-the-fly rationalizations with their questionable repercussions and counterarguments are very unsatisfying to me.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I can see that working for some, but it doesn't resolve the larger issue where other gaming tables simply don't like that new story, or fail to come up with a story altogether for lack of interest, effort or priority.
It probably doesn't. The larger issues with D&D Next are both above my paygrade and something I'm not interested in.

I personally cannot recall a single example of a PC toying with an enemy. And that's not a story I like. Nor do I like to reboot my character's motivation. If you mean that it's "good enough for you", I wouldn't argue with that. It's not good enough for me, much less perfect and coherent, and what is interesting and challenging to you seems contrived to me.
Sure thing. From a process-sim standpoint, it sucks. No arguments. But it's perfectly coherent when viewed narratively, which was [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s point. I'm pretty sure he cares about process-sim even less than I do.

Maybe, except that the fiction of a fearsome fighter's unrelenting assault *always* causing damage now doesn't apply to either fighter. The high level fighter still doesn't cause morale/fatigue damage, and the low level fighter hits on a miss due to a sort of opportunity attack, not an unrelenting assault (BTW, an AoO-style attackw ould arguably would apply equally or more to a finess fighter than a heavy weapon fighter, except that it wouldn't because only Great Weapon fighting causes hit on a miss). These kinds of on-the-fly rationalizations with their questionable repercussions and counterarguments are very unsatisfying to me.
Lots of people don't like them. Doesn't mean they're fundamentally broken, it just means they don't work for that playstyle. The fact that it's a common playstyle doesn't matter to me very much at this point in my gaming life.
 

<unlurk>
Or take another example, a low-level fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and a high-level fighter without that mechanic. Say a couple rounds of combat where both players fumble the die roll and get two misses in a row. The low level fighter kills the opponent after 2 misses, but the high level fighter causes no damage at all. Presumably, however, the high level fighter in the fiction is a much more fearsome opponent, and yet the mechanic arbitrates otherwise in such a case.

Makes sense....obvious conclusion: everybody should do damage on a miss...kinda like 13th Age, I guess. :)

Admittedly, this kind of disconnect happens all the time in D&D especially in corner cases. I just don't understand why you chose to use "perfect" and "coherence". Those judgement values don't mesh at all with many people's playstyle, I don't think.

I find the general HP/damage system and D&D way of doing things to be generally incoherent with the fiction. Having taught newbies D&D and several other games like FATE (on multiple occasions), I can tell you that the D&D method is a significant stumbling block for people coming into the game. We've just gotten so used to it that we've come to think of it as sensible.
 

It probably doesn't. The larger issues with D&D Next are both above my paygrade and something I'm not interested in.

Sure thing. From a process-sim standpoint, it sucks. No arguments. But it's perfectly coherent when viewed narratively, which was @pemerton's point. I'm pretty sure he cares about process-sim even less than I do.
I guess I don't understand the original point then. Firstly, can't any almost any mechanic in a modern RPG be coherent when viewed narratively, as long as you make the story fit one way or another? If so, there's nothing special about highlighting a hit on a miss as making "perfect sense". Secondly, being a D&D Next thread, and given that these are comments about WoTC's Q&A as applies to the playtest, the larger issue is always important context to me.

I find the general HP/damage system and D&D way of doing things to be generally incoherent with the fiction. Having taught newbies D&D and several other games like FATE (on multiple occasions), I can tell you that the D&D method is a significant stumbling block for people coming into the game. We've just gotten so used to it that we've come to think of it as sensible.
I actually agree with you, generally speaking. I think D&D is often incoherent. I just feel that the hit-on-a-miss for Great Weapon fighting makes it even moreso.
 

Or take another example, a low-level fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and a high-level fighter without that mechanic. Say a couple rounds of combat where both players fumble the die roll and get two misses in a row. The low level fighter kills the opponent after 2 misses, but the high level fighter causes no damage at all. Presumably, however, the high level fighter in the fiction is a much more fearsome opponent, and yet the mechanic arbitrates otherwise in such a case.
No, the mechanic arbitrates that the fighter who has specialized in causing at least a little bit of damage whenever he attacks with his large, powerful weapon was able to express that specialty. The other, high-level fighter, OTOH, expresses an entirely different specialty, be that being a deadshot with a bow, being a defensive fighter, being a protective fighter, or having the ability to flowingly wield two weapons simultaneously.

Let us look at other examples.
A 3rd level fighter (16 DEX) with Archery and a 10th level fighter (14 DEX) without that mechanic. Both shoot at a goblin (AC 13), and the die roll is 7. 3rd level fighter adds prof (+2), DEX mod (+3) and Archery bonus (+1), for a total of 13. The 10th level fighter adds prof (+3) and DEX mod (+2) for a total of 12. Does the fiction suggest that the fighter seven levels higher would be the better shot? Or would that perhaps be the guy who specialized in archery?

A low level fighter with Defense and a high level fighter without that mechanic. Both are wearing chain mail and have the same DEX. But a strike that hits the high level fighter misses the low level fighter. Doesn't the fiction suggest that the higher level fighter would be harder to hit?

A low level fighter with Protection and a high level fighter without that mechanic. Both are standing next to an ally who is attacked. The low level fighter uses his mechanic to disrupt the attack. The high level fighter can't do that at all. But shouldn't a high level fighter be better at protecting his allies?

A low level fighter with Two-Weapon Fighting and a high level fighter without that mechanic. Each have 18 STR and use dual-scimitars to attack Goblin Leaders with 18 hp. Both hit with both weapons and roll max damage on each roll! But the high level fighter only does 16 points of damage, and his enemy is still standing. The low level fighter does 20 points of damage and his enemy is dead. Shouldn't the high level fighter be the more fearsome opponent?

All these rules make perfect sense and are coherent in what they represent in the fiction. The only way for them to not make sense is for the DM/players to interpret them in a way that doesn't make sense, i.e., the bastard sword-wielding fighter who's made his life's work damaging the enemy with punishing blows always completely whiffs on his opponent less than five feet away whenever he rolls under target AC.
 

Obviously if this ability is in play then damage can be dealt without hitting on an attack. At the mechanical level, the player has a "fiat" ability - s/he can simply declare an attack and thereby bring it about that, in the fiction, the target is somewhat worn down. In the fiction, the fighter in question is so unrelenting that every 6 seconds of combat with this guy guarantees that the target will be on a trajectory towards death.

I understand that. What you fail to understand is that this is backwards. You are starting at the mechanic and proceeding to derive the explanation. You aren't really overly concerned with whether the explanation is consistent, whether the ability is appropriate for every instance of the character's positioning within the fiction, or whether the mechanic is justified by a need to model something within the fiction that was so valuable to the fiction and such a well known trope within the genera that its exclusion constituted a failure of the model. It's enough that the mechanic is interesting and has been declared by fiat to be a part of the fiction, and you'll rearrange the fiction as necessary to incorporate it.

But presumably you are familiar with the idea of games with fate points, which players can spend in order to fiat outcomes rather than rely on the dice? In that case, it might help you to think of this ability as building into the fighter a fate point resource for the player - every time the fighter attacks, the player has a little fate point s/he can play which says "No matter what the dice say, you take at least 3 (or 5, or whatever) damage from this attack".

But what is the fate point modeling? In this case, sometimes it is modeling hitting the foe extra hard, and sometimes it is modeling being exceptionally accurate. The first might have something to do with 'great weapons', but the second doesn't. And don't fate points normally model luck, or the universe rearranging itself in your favor because 'it likes you' or because you have control over it? You aren't really concerned with why the fiction requires fate points at all, only that they have some mechanical effect. If this is a fate point, shouldn't the mechanic be tied to the charisma or luck or wisdom of the fighter, and two handed weapons should have nothing to do with it? Really, this has nothing to do with fate points at all. The only relationship to fate points is exactly where I'd expect you to be focused - on their mechanical resolution within the game. You aren't interested in their similarities within the fiction, because the fiction is quite clearly not where your priorities are at.

The fighter does have a capability to deal extra damage - namely, this ability! And why should the fighter tire him/herself out quicker than the pixie. The point of this ability is to model an unrelenting fighter. S/he strikes so swiftly and viciously that the pixie gets worn down, and loses the energy to dodge, more quickly than against an ordinary foe.

But if that is what it models - losing the ability to dodge and tiring an opponent out - why does the model rather abstractly and obtusely model this as hit point loss, changing the entire history of damage and model of hit point loss for the sake of this one mechanic! Why not model this as applying a penalty to the pixie's dexterity bonus, or adding a 'fatigued' condition to the pixie? Why is this model tied not to 'unrelenting' (a claim I find spurious), which implies a Constitution or will based power, but instead tied exclusively in the model to 'overwhelming', large weapons (that are tiring to wield), and high strength? This is incoherent, as the explanation you are offering for the fiat judgment doesn't even match the fiction of the mechanic or the rules of the mechanic! And again, it is a model of hit points that no edition of D&D has ever fully embraced, and certainly none before 4e even toyed with.

I already answered this - every time you roll a damage die you have to vary your description based on both the base hit points and the current hit points of the target. The need to vary your description of what happens when you deal damage on a miss based on the circumstances of the target, and the ingame context, is no different.

It is different. This time, you have no physical injury involved at all! This is outside the realm of the usual variation. I can't think of a time I've ever narrated to the character the opponent failed to make contact with you at all, but yes, you just lost 38 hit points (or even 1!). This new possibility creates all sorts of incoherencies. Suppose for example the target isn't slain, but instead loses 55 of 60 hit points entirely to 'hit on a miss', never having been made contact with. If the target was merely fatigued, why does it require so long for the target to regain full fitness? Ahh, but in 4e we totally remodeled healing so that it made some sense to say that hit points where just fatigue... even though no prior edition had said that and each modeled fatigue in some other way than hit point loss. But, if it is fatigue, why don't 30 seconds of vigorous aerobic exercise - running up stairs or dancing or sprinting - also do 55 points of hit point damage to you?

No one ever got killed by a scratch, or even a cumulation of scratches.

For certain definitions of scratch, sure they have. An accumulation of small wounds might result in sufficient loss of blood to lead to unconsciousness and from thence death. Collapsing from blood loss and to be bleeding out happens all the time in the fiction of my game. Presumably, the colossal equivalent of 'mere scratches' leading to blood loss and shock is the main way characters kill enormous monsters. For a colossal monster, all the monsters hit points might be meat!

The rule makes perfect sense. It is a fiat mechanic...

It's a fiat mechanic in a different way as well. It works, because you say it works. The mechanic says something happens, so it happens and the fiction alters itself to conform. The mechanic isn't conformed by the fiction, and you feel no need to make it conform. Again, it's really simple to make this rule conform to the fiction. Instead of saying 'damage on a miss', you say 'damage in cases of making contact with the target that would otherwise not normally do damage'. Note that unlike 'damage on a miss', this later mechanic is pretty exactly what you've most often described the mechanic as modeling. Damage on a miss doesn't in fact model what you've largely narrated in your attempt to rationalize it to the fiction. Now damage is consistent, it's tied logically to great strength and physical force, and it's clear to see what is happening. Most accurately, this involves figuring out which misses made contact, which involves breaking the normally abstract AC into its less abstract components, but if this is too much of a chore then you could claim 'damage on a miss that doesn't miss by much' is a reasonable approximation. It wouldn't be perfectly congruent with the fiction, but I could see it as a compromise between ease of play and simulation.

Of course those who like process simulation mechanics don't like it, but that tells us nothing about its coherence as a mechanic.

Sure it does. People who like more process and more simulation don't like it precisely because it is incoherent. What do you think their disagreement is over? I don't necessarily mind that you are willing to accept high degrees of incoherence in your model for the sake of say tactical interest or simplicity of resolution, but let's not pretend that you aren't prioritizing whatever you are prioritizing over coherence.

The real puzzle for me, as always, is why people who like process simulation mechanics would play D&D rather than (say) Runequest or HARP.

Ok, the real puzzle to me is why people who don't like process simulation mechanics insist on hijacking my game of D&D and trying to turn it in to something else. Why was it necessary to kill my preferred system? Couldn't you just get your own? If you don't like alignment, hit points, levels, Vancian magic, clerics, etc. etc. and you were never really happy with D&D before 4e, why do you think I should be happy with your butchering something I was happy with?
 

Let us look at other examples.
I appreciate the effort into coming up with these examples, but they're not part of the same context for me, and I can't address them without distracting from dicussoin of this specific mechanic.

All these rules make perfect sense and are coherent in what they represent in the fiction. The only way for them to not make sense is for the DM/players to interpret them in a way that doesn't make sense
That is a complex topic too, and the 1st paragraph of Celebrim's post nicely summarizes my position on this.
 

All these rules make perfect sense and are coherent in what they represent in the fiction. The only way for them to not make sense is for the DM/players to interpret them in a way that doesn't make sense, i.e., the bastard sword-wielding fighter who's made his life's work damaging the enemy with punishing blows always completely whiffs on his opponent less than five feet away whenever he rolls under target AC.

So, if it is coherent, what does it represent? Overwhelming attacks that smash through armor and defenses, or incredible precision and accuracy that never whiffs regardless of the target? Because if it is the first, then for some fictional positioning overwhelming attacks - the equivalent of haymakers - are precisely the sort of attacks we would expect to whiff. And if it is the later, why does it have to do with using oversized, heavy weapons, and strength based attacks? If it really has to do with precision of your attacks, so that you don't whiff even when you are attacking Mag, the 4" tall lightning fast Queen of Petals, whose normal move is 24 squares, has perfect flight maneuverability, and a 30 Dexterity, and whose positioning in the fiction is that she zipping around with bullet speed and reflexes and slowed time perception that would put a house fly to shame, why isn't this associated with highly accurate finesse weapons rather than just, well the heavy ones that we normally think of as somewhat slow and clumsy? If this is associated with unrelenting attacks, why is this associated with the very weapons that are most tiring to use, and why doesn't it relate to constitution instead of strength?
 

Ok, the real puzzle to me is why people who don't like process simulation mechanics insist on hijacking my game of D&D and trying to turn it in to something else. Why was it necessary to kill my preferred system? Couldn't you just get your own? If you don't like alignment, hit points, levels, Vancian magic, clerics, etc. etc. and you were never really happy with D&D before 4e, why do you think I should be happy with your butchering something I was happy with?
Who said you had to be happy? Advocate away for your position! You're probably going to win anyway! Doesn't stop me from advocating for 5e to be an improved 4e, despite a snowball's chance in hell of that happening. I'd much rather the market as a whole get over process-sim and play differently, that's all. Thank goodness for 13th Age and FATE Core.
 

Celebrim said:
So, if it is coherent, what does it represent? Overwhelming attacks that smash through armor and defenses, or incredible precision and accuracy that never whiffs regardless of the target?

Yes. Both, either, and many other things. I don't know why you would limit someone who specializes in getting through some damage no matter what to a single method. Do you question Sneak Attack this much?
 

Remove ads

Top