D&D 5E Q&A 10/17/13 - Crits, Damage on Miss, Wildshape

I don't know why we would make that assumption when the mechanics tell us otherwise. The raging barbarian attacks furiously but is sometimes wild or inconsistent (higher spike damage, no auto-damage); the two weapon fighter is attacking furiously with two weapons (higher spike damage, no auto-damage); the great weapon fighter is relentlessy wearing down his/her opponent (lower spike damage, but auto-damage producing a guaranteed floor).
I'm at loss to understand the comparison. Many classes are able to relentlessly wear down opponents, but only the heavy weapon fighting style always causes damage, and some of us don't like that. What assumption are you questioning?

In that case, the following scenario has the same probability: that the higher level fighter misses twice, and that the lower level fighter misses once and then hits the second time, killing the foe. D&D has always allowed for this conundrum!
Firstly, I would also differentiate between implicit probabilities in gameplay that create conundrums vs explicit rules that induce conundrums upon reading. But since you're not at all sim-oriented for D&D, that appeal would seem to fall on deaf ears? Secondly, even ignoring sim arguments, it is a genre trope that sometimes a lesser hero kills the villian when a greater warrior fails to do so -- so no uncomfortable contradiction there for me.

Or as @TwoSix suggested, the high level fighter is engaging the enemy to such an extent that the low level fighter can push through its defences.
Well that's just unfair (or maybe you just missed it) to resurrect that contention when I already clearly explained previously exactly how unsatisfying that was for me (and probably others).

I've got nothing against process sim mechanics in principle, but you're right that I don't regard them as a be-all and end-all. And I find process-sim objections to variant mechanics within D&D combat - which in its attack and damage rules has never been process-sim - almost unintelligible.
I appreciate you clarifying that these and other pages of earnest explanation remain "almost unintelligible" to you, as I know to limit the amount of effort clarifying why what makes
perfect, coherent sense to you does not make others happy.

First, dealing hit point damage is a common simple mechanic in D&D, and as I've already pointed out twice upthread it requires different "narrative justifications" (ie correlates to different events in the fiction even though the mechanical resolution at the table is identical) as a matter of course.
The simple (and apparently "almost unintelligible") argument is that D&D already requires people to believe in 6 impossible things before breakfast, and many people don't want to have to believe more impossible things. Mechanics like advantage/disadvantage don't make D&D seem more or less impossible or unreasonable, but hit-on-miss (or at least the current rule as is) just does. I regret if that's unintelligible, but it's a position as valid as any other playstyle.

Edit: And if D&DN reduced it to just 5 impossible things before breakfast (without sacrificing fun or ease of play, of course), I'd be truly happy but I'm not holding breath on that one.
 
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Page 2 also says the following; "To hit the target, your result must be equal to or greater than the AC. If you hit, you deal damage with your attack, reducing your target’s hit points."
I believe it is the next line.
Funnily it doesn't define what a miss is. Presumably a miss is the opposite of a hit. So, "to miss a target, you result must be less than the AC. If you miss, you do not deal damage with your attack, and do not reduce the target's hit points."

Or in the Combat section (under basic attacks) p.19:
"If you hit, you roll damage, unless your attack specifies otherwise."
So, a miss is "If you miss, you do not roll damage, unless your attack specifies otherwise."
The rules say that "a hit deals damage". It does not follow from that that a miss doesn't deal damage. The most you could say is that it follows that a miss may not, or perhaps probably does not, deal damage. (On the "rolling" damage, I'll note that the ability under discussion does not involve rolling damage. It is fixed damage.)

In every circumstance a miss is a failure, not a half-failure.
That's not accurate. For example, many circumstances grant advantage, which is the functional equivalent of a reroll on a miss. The rogue at 20th level gets the "Ace in the Hole" ability, which allows turning a miss into a hit or treating a check or save as if a natural 20 had been rolled. And an evocation mage at 5th level gets the ability to do half damage even on a miss with (or an enemy's successful save against) a cantrip.

The greatweapon ability is, in my opinion, best understood as another form of dice manipulation ability along these lines.

I'm going to assume we are using YOUR version that the fighter tires the target out until they die. NOT Rodney's version that some part of the attack is so brutal it transitions through the armor of the target.
The ability as described by Rodney is one that is so brutal it cuts through the armor to do STR damage.
As I said upthread, these are just illustrative. They are not (and cannot) be definitive of every use of the ability.

Consider another fighter ability - Trip, on p 25 of the Classes document. If the superiority die equals or exceeds the target's STR mod, they are knocked prone. The giant ape in the bestiary has STR 22 (+6) and 95 hit points. Suppose a 1st level fighter hits the as-yet untouched ape for 1 hp of damage, rolls the superiority die and knocks the ape prone. How did s/he do this? 1 hp of damage to a 95 hp giant ape is barely a scratch - so how was the ape knocked down? Perhaps some fancy footwork by the fighter.

Consider the same ability used against a kobold. A kobold has 2 hp and STR 7 (-2), and I am pretty sure that most tables would narrate the same attack (1 hp damage, knocked prone) as some sort of winding blow that sends the kobold sprawling.

It is inherent in D&D's hit point mechanic that mechanically identical events get narrated differently, depending upon the fictional context and the external mechanical parameters.

why is it that a fighter is so unrelenting that he is able to tire a target out, even if that target is an immortal creature doing nothing more than dodging every attack, without also having that fighter also be tired out by wielding his greatsword.
Because the fighter is tougher than the immortal in question? Why is that a cleric's devotion brings divine intervention, but a fighter's devotion doesn't? Why is a back-alley rogue a better precision striker than a weapon-specialist fighter? Because we allocate different archetypical abilities to different character classes.

Now, outside of the ability saying that he is so unrelenting that he somehow deals the fighter's STR to the target every round they are in melee (or rather every round he makes an unsuccessful attack) what do you have to say that it SHOULD be this way?

<snip>

Outside of - this ability! - does anyone (non-magically, and yes excluding fate points if they would allow such a thing) have such a capability? Especially another fighter?
I've given examples above of comparable abilities that are part of D&D next.

As to why the game should include such abilities, isn't the answer that these are character types that players want to play? I don't know what other reason can be given for the design of character classes in a fantasy RPG.

(Why not just give a damage bonus? Because that (i) underminds bounded accuracy, and (ii) makes the fighter tread on the rogue's toes as the "spike damage" character class. Auto-damage, like advantage, conforms to bounded accuracy while still raising average damage per round.)

I am only barely aware of fate points (I'm including hero points, adventure points, or other variants). I've never used them as a player or allowed them as a DM. I know they can add bonuses or change outcomes, but I don't have any idea on what kinds of things they can change specifically.

Beyond that, as I understand it fate points are a rare and precious commodity. They don't replenish regularly and once spent they are drained.

<snip>

if they had fate points - a system I have never once used EVER - then yes I would let the fighter dictate something in such a way. I would do that because if I'm allowing fate points I'm allowing that kind of subsystem. It is not, however, a core mechanic of the game.
There are plenty of games that use fate points not as a rare & precious commodity, but as a core mechanical feature of the system. (Examples include Burning Wheel, Marvel Heroic RP, and as best I unerstand it Fate and Savage Worlds.)

Many people interpret D&D hit points as a form of fate point - in effect, the character pays fate points to "buy off" what would otherwise be the debilitating or fatal effects of injury (from weapon, fireball, falling a great height etc) - and on that reading D&D is also a game where fate points are not rare and precious commodities but core to the system.

I get it that you don't like the great weapon class feature. But it doesn't follow from your dislike that it is an inherently flawed mechanic. Having seen that sort of mechanic in play, I can testify that it does what it promises to do: it makes the character, in play, express the archetype of an unrelenting fighter who will drive his/her enemies into the ground. If you don't want that sort of player-fiat in your game, that's of course your prerogative. But it is not unplayable.

the pixie is used to being small and buzzing around. He may have to buzz from place a little faster but presumably he is immortal and doesn't need rest or sleep (I believe those were requirements Celebrim put forth). Why SHOULDN'T the fighter be more tired?
Frankly, I am not interested in a game whose mechanics are designed around this sort of corner case.

Let's look at another monster - the Wraith. According to p 87 of the Bestiary the wraith is incorporeal, does not need to sleep, and has 78 hit points. A fighter attacks the wraith and hits it for 3 point of damage. The wraith now has 76 hit points left. What, in the fiction, has happened to the wraith? It has not been scratched - you can't scratch an incorporeal spirit! It has not in fact suffered any tissue damage at all - it has no tissue, living or otherwise. It has not become tired - it is an undead spirit that cannot tire and never sleeps.

Whatever exactly you think happens to that wraith - I personally think of it as pure meta-game, in that the player of the fighter has got closer to declaring, in fiction, that the fighter has defeated the wraith - I think the same narrative can be told about the pixie being worn down by auto-damage.

It is a fiat mechanic on the wrong side of the screen

<snip>

I assume you like fiat, I don't - it shouldn't be a necessary part of the core game.
It seems to me that this is the only issue. You don't like player fiat abilities.

Whereas I think they are inherent to D&D. There is no other way I can see of making sense of what happens when that wraith suffers 3 hp of damage and still has 75 hp left.
 

For certain definitions of scratch, sure they have. An accumulation of small wounds might result in sufficient loss of blood to lead to unconsciousness and from thence death.

<snip>

Now damage is consistent, it's tied logically to great strength and physical force, and it's clear to see what is happening.
I have never heard the word "scratch" used to describe wounding that can lead to fatal blood loss.

Once we remember that, in the typical D&D combat, this will be delivered via 4 to 6 hits, we're talking "scratches" that, when taken in lots of 5, are fatal. Those aren't scratches - they're major injuries! (Also, I thought you were against "Schroedinger's wounds". Hence, you are committed to the severity of the scratch from the moment damage is dealt. Hence, given that - up until the death blow is delivered - it would be mechanically possible for the target of the damage to walk away essentially unimpeded, presumably none of the prior events of hit point loss can be narrated as involving potentially fatal blood loss.)

As for the consistency of damage - a 10 STR mage hits a 100 hp target for 4 hp of damage (lucky d4 roll). The target has 96 hp remaining. A 20 STR fighter hits a 100 hp target for 8 hp of damage (unlucky d8 roll, and I'm assuming +2 damage bonus coming from somewhere or other). The target has 92 hp remaining.

What is "clearly happening" in these scenarios? What difference is "great strength and physical force" making? I can't see it. We have two foes, essentially - in the fiction - uninjured. (Certainly neither is suffering a "scratch" from which fatal blood loss might result.) And even though mechanically one is slightly closer to death than the other, the vagaries of damage rolls are such that it is quite likely that the additional 4 hp loss at this point make no difference to the final outcome. (Overkill by 4+ hp is pretty common, especially one the game is featuring opponents with 100 hp.)

this is backwards. You are starting at the mechanic and proceeding to derive the explanation. You aren't really overly concerned with whether the explanation is consistent
Consistent with what? The unrelenting fighter is certainy consistent with a certain, fairly pervasive, conception of the "dreadnought" or "ultra-tank" fighter.

As for "backwardsness", when someone rolls 5 damage against an as-yet uninjured 100 hp opponent, they have to start at the mechanic before establishing a narrative. This is typical of fotune-in-the-middle mechanics, which injury in D&D has always been, precisely because the in-fiction meaning of hit point loss cannot be known simply by reading it off the damage dice.

But what is the fate point modeling? In this case, sometimes it is modeling hitting the foe extra hard, and sometimes it is modeling being exceptionally accurate. The first might have something to do with 'great weapons', but the second doesn't. And don't fate points normally model luck, or the universe rearranging itself in your favor because 'it likes you' or because you have control over it?
Fate points don't model anything as far as I'm aware. That's what makes them metagame mechanics. But if you want to think of them as modelling luck, then this fighter is very lucky. Or if you want to think of them as modelling control, then this fighter has great control - nothing gets away from him/her.

You aren't really concerned with why the fiction requires fate points at all
Huh? The fiction doesn't require fate points. Rather, the player of the character wants to create a certain fiction - namely, of the unrelenting figher - and the mechanics of the game (based around hit rolls and damage rolls) can't deliver that fiction without granting the player a fiat override of the base mechanics - ie the fate point in question.

why does the model rather abstractly and obtusely model this as hit point loss, changing the entire history of damage and model of hit point loss for the sake of this one mechanic!

<snip>

Ok, the real puzzle to me is why people who don't like process simulation mechanics insist on hijacking my game of D&D and trying to turn it in to something else.
Last I checked, no one is hijacking your game. And no one is jumping into their time machine to try and change history. WotC is publishing a new game. Much like they published 3E, which (in my personal opinion) abandoned some of the more attractive features of AD&D for little gain that I can see.

It's a commercial venture by a commercial publishing house. It's not a moral issue.

Furthermore, we can see in this thread that those with process-sim preferences but who, for whatever reason, choose not to play genuinely process sim games seem to have persuaded themselves that hit points are process sim with no fotune-in-the-middle component. I am pretty confident that if the game is published with this ability, those same players will find ways to give this ability, the fighter's trip ability, Ace in the Hole, Action Surge etc process-sim interpretations.
 

it is a genre trope that sometimes a lesser hero kills the villian when a greater warrior fails to do so
OK, but in that case what is your problem with the lower-level fighter killing via autodamage when the higher level fighter fails to hurt it? I can't see any difference between the two cases.

I would also differentiate between implicit probabilities in gameplay that create conundrums vs explicit rules that induce conundrums upon reading.
I think that's an important point of difference in preferenes. I do not read the rules in order to establish how the fictional gameworld works. I already know that because I've read Conan stories and watched the LotR movies.

When I read the rules I am reading them to understand how they will generate outcomes in play. It is those outcomes that matter to me. Hence, for me, there is no difference between you "condundrum" (of the low level fighter who outfights the high level fighter due to auto-damage) and my "conundrum" (of the low level fighter who outfights the high level fighter due to hitting rather than missing).

This is also why I am not that moved by odd corner cases. (Other famous corner-cases: the rogue who is standing on an unadorned glassy plain, which damages anyone who walks on it - mechanically expressed as (say) 5 hp of damage for every square entered - and who uses evasion to take no damage from a fireball; or the fighter who is hog-tied, thrown over a 100' cliff, and lends at the bottom still hog-tied yet still alive.) These don't come up much in play, and when they do a suitable narrative can be ad-libbed if anyone asks for it.

The simple (and apparently "almost unintelligible") argument is that D&D already requires people to believe in 6 impossible things before breakfast, and many people don't want to have to believe more impossible things.
This is another difference. I prefer to play games whose mechanics I like, rather than playing a game despite its mechanics. For instance, with hit points, rather than treat them as an absurdity to be tolerated, I treat them as a metagame mechanic.

If people are playing D&D but don't like its mechanics because they are not process sim, then I can understand they wouldn't like even more such mechanics. It just hadn't occured to me that many D&D players would fit this description.
 

Arguing for mechanics that ONLY fit process sim mechanics or ONLY fit this fiat token argument [or whatever the two sides we're arguing here are] doesn't really work {edit:}to create a broad flexible game for "everyone"{/}. Have broad simple rules that fit most general cases for "process sim" and when that doesn't work [like a specific case where a pixie has high AC cuz of DEX, etc] justify via fiat, or let the people who are really serious about process sim either houserule, or use an advanced module.
I think I agree with this, if I've understood it properly. But I'm not sure that it tells us whether the autodamage option should or should not be part of the core rules.
 

OK, but in that case what is your problem with the lower-level fighter killing via autodamage when the higher level fighter fails to hurt it? I can't see any difference between the two cases.
Because the low level fighter exceeded the high level fighter on a lucky rare strike but not as a matter of course.
I think that's an important point of difference in preferenes. I do not read the rules in order to establish how the fictional gameworld works. I already know that because I've read Conan stories and watched the LotR movies.

When I read the rules I am reading them to understand how they will generate outcomes in play.
I'm glad you mentioned that because I was thinking that I read D&D rules as worldbuilding. Not so much as a sim or process sim. (Something like Chaosim's CoC suits me fine for a balance of sim and ease of play.) So for example, I don't care if a dagger to the heart causes as much damage as a sword and so I don't care if 1d4 and 1d10 is an unrealistic abstraction. Weapon damage tells me interesting things about the game world. A D&D book isn't a texbook of physics to me; rather, it's a fantasy guide or almanac translated into game lingo. Great weapon fighting hit-on-miss doesn't say anything interesting or believable to me about world-building; rather it introduces incohesion that outweighs its usefulness to me. (This is my current pet theory; I felt before like I was being boxed in between sim labels vs narrativists or whatnot, but I'm not sure it applies as much as it's used around here).
I am pretty confident that if the game is published with this ability, those same players will find ways to give this ability, the fighter's trip ability, Ace in the Hole, Action Surge etc process-sim interpretations.
I don't share your confidence. I think that if the game is published with this ability, then sim (or world building) players will treat it the same way they treat evasion against a fireball in a 10x10 room with no cover - which is to dislike and/or ignore it but they'd never enjoy interpreting it IMO.
 
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Because the low level fighter exceeded the high level fighter on a lucky rare strike but not as a matter of course.
But the example you gave wasn't "as a matter of course" either - you posited the high level fighter getting unlucky, because missing twice an opponent weak enough to be killed on 6 to 8 hp of damage (which is what a low-level autodamger will do in 2 rounds, with 16 or 18 STR).

In the Bestiary, for instance, a kobold dragonshield has AC 16 and 7 hp. A 1st level fighter with 18 STR has +5 to hit, which means hitting on an 11 (.5 chance to hit). An 1th level fighter with 20 STR has +9 to hit (ignoring magic), which means hitting on a 7 (.7 chance to hit). So the probability of the 15th level fighter missing twice in a row is .09 (less than 1 in 10).

That's part of why I see the two exmamples as pretty comparable.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I was thinking that I read D&D rules as worldbuilding.
OK. I don't. I read them as a set of instructions for play.
 


I think I agree with this, if I've understood it properly. But I'm not sure that it tells us whether the autodamage option should or should not be part of the core rules.

Well, part of my whole point in posting in this thread was that I think autodamage should not be part of the core rules.

Let a guy do less than a regular "hit" damage on a a role slightly missing the target AC, if "hitting" an AC means you "hit" or somehow inflict [weapon] + [mod] damage
but at the same time there should be room for a "miss" that means you don't inflict any damage at all.

Autodamage on every die roll means there's no way to truly "miss" with an attack. That is just antithetical to the basic assumption a clueless player comes into the game expecting.
 

Since it was my quote that got us here, I might as well weigh in. (Despite enjoying this thread so much as a spectator...I really must bookmark these things for when people tell me how easy HP are. :))

You're not wrong on any of this, but when you started playing as a kid did you start with thinking about fiat tokens and 6 second (or minute) rounds when you roll a dice to attack, or did you think in your mind "I swing at the orc. [rolls]Dang, I missed"? Maybe later when you thought about mechanics and realism you though "wait, but if I got hit just once I'd be so dead. Maybe hit points means something different" and then we get all the vagueness. Me though, and -I know it's anecdotal but I'd argue- most people I know thought of a hit as a weapon connecting with something. We thought of hit points as connected as to how many "hits" you could take.
If you want to say hps are abstract, fine. If you want to say they're not, any you're willing to accept [as we constantly do in movies and video games] that each "hit" actually connects and somehow a single blow doesn't kill someone. Fine. The game works both ways.

A lot of what you're talking about depends on the game systems you're using. I know we don't tend to think it can be that different, but...it is. I've taught several groups of kids how to play FATE, and if you present the game as telling a story, then all those "fiat tokens" or FATE points, make perfect sense to them. I haven't personally done it, but many folks who introduced Cortex+ games like MHRP report similar things. Newbies have, AFAICT, no trouble at all playing rpgs/story games at a very "meta" level, and IME take to that a lot easier than they do to the not-very-good-simulations of traditional rpgs. The "simulatory" (to coin a word) aspects of the play experience to which you refer are (IME) completely dependent on the mentality that the system presents, not an inherent property of the people playing, at least AFAICT. I should also note that GMs who introduce games like FATE or MHRP to long-time D&D (or other traditional rpgs) players often report that significant "de-programming" or resistance takes place, far more so than with newbies. Hence my belief that we grow too familiar with the D&D system and its failings, to the point where we no longer recognize them as failings.

Arguing for mechanics that ONLY fit process sim mechanics or ONLY fit this fiat token argument [or whatever the two sides we're arguing here are] doesn't really work {edit:}to create a broad flexible game for "everyone"{/}. Have broad simple rules that fit most general cases for "process sim" and when that doesn't work [like a specific case where a pixie has high AC cuz of DEX, etc] justify via fiat, or let the people who are really serious about process sim either houserule, or use an advanced module.

I think a large part of the problem here is that the traditional D&D engine just isn't very good at being a process sim and regularly violates its own definitions and natural language for things like HP, wounds, "hits", etc.* (When it has even bothered to define those well within the context of the game and/or fiction.) I mean, once you toss in the old-school healing spell names and their effects...well the whole thing falls apart. One might think the Cleric is insane! First he casts Cure Critical Wounds on the Fighter, who looks barely winded with a few scratches, and he looks marginally better and a few bruises clear up. Then he casts Cure Light Wounds on the dying princess with the sucking chest wound**...and she's fully healed?:confused: Most of us have learned to "not see" or handwave away these and many other problems, and have come to perceive the engine as somehow being a fundamentally better or more realistic thing than it is.

*Now, I don't think that's a tremendous failing of Gygax or Arneson or whoever. The traditional D&D engine wasn't (AFAICT) intended to be a simulation in the first place!
**How effective and miraculous this is may be edition or variant-rule dependent.
 

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