Question About Combat in 1e

MerricB said:
AD&D: the game where the wielder of a dagger prays for a tie on initiative with the wielder of a pike!

(Result: Dagger attacks three times, Pike attacks once).
Heh. Yeah, that sounds pretty weird. I think the idea behind the weapon-speed-on-ties rule is that if one or the other side has initiative, then each side is assuming offense vs. defense roles throughout the round (i.e. the standard assumption, so normal number of attacks apply). In the event of a tie, however, both sides have gone on "offense" at the same time, in which case the faster weapon will have a larger-than-normal advantage.

Pike vs. dagger is inherently strange, in any case -- it's an initiative check that would almost never really happen. An awl pike is listed as being 18+ feet long, so if the dagger-wielder is within range to melee (i.e. 10 feet or less), he's WAY inside the pike's reach, and I wouldn't let the pikeman use his pike at all. The pikeman would get to use it once, when somebody charged or closed to engage (where weapon length, rather than initiative, applies), and if the dagger-wielder got through, then the pikeman would need to drop his pike and draw a more appropriate weapon.
 

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I agree, Philotomy.

MY way of determining intitiative is very simple, o new intitiate to the One True System.

Have your player's elected spokesman roll 1d6. 1-3 gives the party intiative, 4-6 gives the monster initiative. roll 1d6 again, and 1-3 means the party without intiative is surprised. It's alot easier and makes encounters feel more random. Being dexterous has nothing to do with if you are surprised or not.

As far as all that segements business, toss that out to. PArty's turn, monsters' turn, party's turn, monsters' turn. Combat will run smoother. I probably just made a few purist's hair stand on end, but I find that if you roll for initiative only once and then follow that order, you're games will be fast and lethal, without worrying about weapon's speeds. Some thing like reach (as in the case of a polearm) shouldn't be ignored, but there are some rules which are way too obfuscated or obtuse.
 


Gah..haven't thought about this in years. I can't tell you what the book says, but I can tell you what we did.

Melee Attack

Roll d10 initiative.
Subtract your reaction adjustment for high dex.
Add your weapon speed (-1 per + of the weapon to a minimum of 1)
Minimum is 1

That's when you get your first attack (or if dual wielding, your first on hand and your off hand attack). Subsequent attacks for high level/specialization come at the end of the round.

If you are casting a spell

Roll d6 initiative.
Subtract your reaction adjustment for high dex.
Add casting time for the spell in segments
Minimum is 1

Any spells not cast in the 1-10 segment order, go off at the end of the round.

If a spell and an attack go off on the same segment, spell goes first. If two spells or two attacks go off, highest dex goes first. If dex is equal, they are simulataneous.

Cedric
 

If you really want to experience 1E rules as they were played back in the day, read them, think about how you would rather see it doen instead, and then come up with your own house rules. These house rules would come and go and get modified with each game as the DM and the players decided if they were acheiving the desired goal or not. Some would want faster and easier and some would want more realistic and complex.

I remember doing handleing initiative lots of ways. Usually it was just a d6 or d10 either by party or individually, and you took your full actions when it was your turn. Many DMs tried to work in a weapon's speed factor into the intiative system or even use an impulse action system based on them. The one I finally came up with went by segment, especailly for casting time and movement for which we had our own, more realistic move rates for. This all came from a particular enounter where after much debate, it was decided that upon hearing the Drow wizard starting to cast Fireball, the PCs could drop everything and run at a full run while unencumbered fast enough to be out of the the spell's range by time it was finished. While a bit complex, it was a system developed by the group that used it, constantly modified by same group, and if delivered the style of play everybody wanted.
 


The combat sequence in 1E AD&D is a simple procedure with a lot of special case exceptions that, taken in isolation, work fine but when combined quickly become a very big mess. The trick, then, is not to use the various special cases in combination -- when you've got, for instance, a high level fighter with multiple attack routines attempting to melee an enemy spell-caster who won initiative for the round don't try to apply both the rules for multiple attack routines and the rules for meleeing enemy spell-casters who won initiative together, because the two systems aren't consistent and were never intended to be combined. Instead, use common sense and make something up that seems appropriate -- that is the true "spirit" of the 1E AD&D combat/initiative rules, and all of the various complicated special cases laid out in those rules are nothing more than examples of how to handle various common situations, not ironclad rules, and certainly not a "system" in the modern sense.

Here's a few rules of thumb:

*Each round, both sides roll 1d6. Higher roll goes first, tied rolls equal simultaneous action. This is the general rule; everything else is exceptions.

*Characters cannot move more than 10' and engage in melee in the same round unless they're Charging (Note: this works both ways -- a character spending the round closing to melee range can't attack, but can't be attacked either, unless the opponent is Charging him).

*Charging characters may move up to their full Charge movement and melee in the same round -- first strike at the end of a charge is determined by weapon length, not initiative roll. Charging characters get an attack bonus but suffer an AC penalty. Characters can only Charge once every 10 rounds.

*Characters with missile weapons with ROF2 may move 1/2 and fire once, not move and fire twice, or move full and not fire. ROF1 (or less) may not move and fire in the same round. Exceptions: elves (and mounted archers) may move full and fire once, characters with thrown weapons (spears, axes, hammers, daggers, etc.) may move full and fire once (and, if Charging, melee at the end of the Charge).

*Characters firing missiles who are in the unencumbered (12") encumbrance class may add their Dex reaction bonus to their side's initiative die (so, if the party rolls a 3, the Dex 17 (+2 reaction bonus) archer effectively has a 5, which may cause him to tie or even beat the other side's roll).

*Spellcasters must declare which spell they are casting before initiative is rolled, may not move and cast in the same round, and may not apply their Dex AC bonus while casting.

*Characters who lost initiative to enemy spell-casters may still be able to interrupt the spells, by comparing initiative roll and/or weapon speed to the spell's casting time (there are two different systems for this in the DMG, and they're not consistent with each other).

*In melee, higher number of attack routines wrap around lower numbers, taking precedence over the initiative roll (so a character with 2 attack routines/round against a character with 1 attack routine will always attack 1st and last, regardless of initiative rolls).

*In melee, tied initiative rolls are broken by weapon speed; mismatched weapons might give the faster weapon extra attacks.

*Unarmed combat (DMG procedure) and Psionic Combat use different initiative procedures from normal combat. Unarmed combat (UA procedure) uses the normal initiative rules, but characters making unarmed attacks suffer an individual initiative penalty (which may cause them to tie or lose initiative even if their side won).

*Characters who aren't engaged in combat can perform a minute's worth of activity -- move up to their full move rate, cast up to a 10-segment spell (but only one spell per round, unless they;re both cantrips (from UA)), or other miscellaneous activity.

I think that covers just about everything in the rules. For anything that's not covered above, or where two or more special cases apply at once, you're on your own.
 

I have been gravely overestimating how playable the 1e RAW is out of the box.

That is just awful.

My gaming group houseruled that to death after first dropping half those rules outright, and still had something much more complicated than 3e.

I will never whine about 3e AoO rules again.
 

painandgreed said:
If you really want to experience 1E rules as they were played back in the day, read them, think about how you would rather see it doen instead, and then come up with your own house rules. These house rules would come and go and get modified with each game as the DM and the players decided if they were acheiving the desired goal or not. Some would want faster and easier and some would want more realistic and complex.

That is exactly what I plan to do. It is a project I am working on to generate a hybrid of 3e and 1e that uses the best of both worlds. But before I do anything with combat I want to know how the rules actually work first. :)
 

Glyfair said:
In fact, I think this is a major reason you hear a lot of comments about how 1E was much less rules intensive than 3E. It's not that it was, it's just that most people ignored much of 1E and so the AD&D game they played was less rules intensive.

(I will note I was in the group that ignored many of the rules. I never touched weapon speeds, unarmed combat rules, etc).

Yep - we were in the same boat. Never really got much in the way back then. We enjoyed ourselves thoroughly. :D
 

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