Question about commanding undead for evil clerics

[Lazybones]

I have a question about commanding undead. Can an evil cleric willingly defer commanding undead (instead rebuking), if the levels he would command exceed those he can control?

Say you have a 7th level cleric. By rule, he can control a single ghoul (2HD, +2 turn resistance). But he can rebuke many (2d6+7+CHA bonus in HD, so on average 3-4 of them per turning attempt). If he turns, and gets an 8 HD result on the first roll (thus commanding rather than rebuking any affected ghouls), can he choose to rebuke instead? If he cannot, then it would seem that the rebuke power is somewhat nerfed for him, since he will never be able to command more than one of them.

I only have the 3.5 PH and SRD to reference; please let me know if you are referencing other sources.

 

[pawsplay]

You can relinquish control at any time, presumably even as it is granted. There is nothing in the turn description I can see that prevents merely rebuking. You command any you would normally destroy, and you destroy those you would normally turn if your level is high enough... but it doesn't say the lesser effect isn't encompassed. It doesn't, for instance, say undead are destroyed and not turned.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I think such a cleric could not command any ghouls at all, per the rules. The ghouls are considered 4 HD for turning/rebuking purposes (2HD +2 turn resistance). Half of 7 levels is 3, not 4. If a 7th level cleric could command ghouls, though; he could command up to 3 of them as total number of HD commanded is not affected by turn resistance.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A creature with this special quality (usually an undead) is less easily affected by clerics or paladins. When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, add the indicated number to the creature’s Hit Dice total.

...At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level.

...Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

...Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

...At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level.

Once commanded, the ghoul's HD for continued control is 2 not 4 because the turning/rebuking attempt is already resolved.

At least, that's how I see it.

A 7th level cleric's level for turning does not change by the roll made; just the maximum HD (+ turn resistance) of the creatures affected.

Ciao
Dave

 

[moritheil]

I think such a cleric could not command any ghouls at all, per the rules. The ghouls are considered 4 HD for turning/rebuking purposes (2HD +2 turn resistance). Half of 7 levels is 3, not 4. If a 7th level cleric could command ghouls, though; he could command up to 3 of them as total number of HD commanded is not affected by turn resistance.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you assuming that the cleric has nothing that boosts effective level for turning and does not roll well when turning? Why are you halving the cleric level?

 

[Lazybones]

Okay, rereading the SRD I see that ElectricDragon's point appears to be correct; by the rules the cleric has to have 2x the undead's HD (in this case, 2HD+2TR, for 4, requiring a cleric of level 8 to command).

So make the cleric 8th level and the original question still stands. Say I have 2 ghouls commanded; can I chose to rebuke another set, or is the cleric forced to relinquish his control on the ones he has already commanded in order to affect the others at all?

pawsplay, I know there is nothing in the RAW that forbids this explicitly, but neither do the rules specifically allow it. If necessary, I'll make a house rule administering this item.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually, for the reasons I stated above, I believe the rules tacitly allow it. They undead are "instead" commanded, if you choose not to command them, the rebuke that command would ordinarily substitute for is in effect.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Turn Resistance does not apply to already commanded undead. Use their HD only for how many you can control. An 8th level cleric can have up to 4 ghouls under his command at a time.

There is no choice to instead rebuke:

Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

...Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

...He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

Now, a House Rule could be made to allow this.
Barring a HR; the evil cleric can still use his turning checks to Bolster his undead or to Dispel a Turning attempt; but when affecting new undead if his level is twice the Undead's HD plus turn resistance, they are commanded. He gets to choose which of his commanded undead are released from command; but it is command not rebuke.

Ciao
Dave

 

[pawsplay]

It says he may voluntarily relinquish command of his undead in order to control others. Therefore, he may choose not to. If he chooses not to, the undead are still turned, and if they are turned, then he does not command the undead instead of rebuking them, which means they are rebuked.

No house rule necessary.

 

[Lazybones]

Well, it seems like there's some disagreement, so I'll probably just house rule it anyway.

I didn't know that TR doesn't apply when determining how many undead can be controlled, but rereading the SRD entry, it does say that "when resolving a turning attempt" to factor in the bonus. So I suppose I agree with ED's interpretation. And it looks like that the cleric's situation will improve dramatically with regards to ghouls once he hits that 8th level.

 

[Demoquin]

What if the said Cleric rolls a 12 or higher for his Turning check? Essentially adding lvls in Cleric for his attempt. Would that mean a lvl 7 Cleric who rolls high enough still be able to command/ destroy ghouls.