Question about Hunter's Quarry and Twin Strike

[Branduil]

If I'm using Twin Strike, do I wait until I hit with an attack to roll Hunter's Quarry damage? Or do I have to declare it beforehand and potentially "waste" my Hunter's Quarry?

 

[Xorn]

If you make multiple attacks in a round, you decide after the attacks are rolled which on the HQ damage goes with. (Paraphrased from Hunter's Quarry text, second paragraph.)

 

[Branduil]

Thanks. I don't have the books yet, so I couldn't remember what it said.

So is it just me, or is Twin Strike by far the best at-will for an archer Ranger? Nimble Strike I can so being useful in some situations, but Careful Strike is just awful.

 

[Cirex]

Thanks. I don't have the books yet, so I couldn't remember what it said.

So is it just me, or is Twin Strike by far the best at-will for an archer Ranger? Nimble Strike I can so being useful in some situations, but Careful Strike is just awful.

Careful strike was heavily nerfed. It had +4 to attack, no stat damage at the DDXP pregen characters and it was fine.

 

[Xorn]

Careful Attack/Strike is +2 to hit at the cost of your stat damage on the attack. I thought it was a mistake at first (because of DDXP) but then I started considering the math:

Let's say at first level I have 18 DEX (+4).

I can do my regular shot with +6 to hit, and do 1d10+4 damage (remember the bow has +2 prof bonus)
or
I can do Careful shot and have +8 to hit, and do 1d10 damage.

So I'm trading 4 damage for +10% to hit.

Fast forward to say... 21ish, and now I have about 26 Dex (+8).

Now I can do my normal shot with +10 vs AC and 2d10+8 damage
Or I can do my careful shot with +12 vs AC and 2d10 damage.

So I'm trading 8 damage for +10% to hit. I also hit twice as hard as I did before.

That's when it occurred to me that +to-hit is static. +2 to hit is always going to improve your chance of success by 10%, unless you are "off the d20" for your hit needs. 4E scaling is designed to keep you on the d20 when fighting appropriate encounters. So basically I'm getting +10% to hit for a scaling amount of reduced damage.

Let's say it stayed like DDXP (which appeared to give you Dex*2 vs AC for 1W damage.

At level 1 careful attack = +4 hit for 4 less damage
At level 21 careful attack = +8 hit for 8 less damage.

Why would you ever NOT use a +40% hit chance!?

Twin Shot is very strong, no argument. You'll burn through ammo at an alarming rate as an archer, of course.

But she can either fire 2 shots with +7 to hit, for up to 2d10+d6+2 (28, if both shots hit) or one shot with +9 to hit for up to 1d10+d6+1 (17) or a basic ranged attack with +7 to hit for up to 1d10+d6+6 (22). She's got to hit twice for Twin Shot to do up to 28, otherwise 17 is her max.

She usually used Twin Shot against minions or badly wounded enemies (so she could start on a new target with the second shot). Against high AC targets (like the dragon) she used Careful Shot, really needing to make it count. When she was down to 10 arrows, she started using basic ranged attacks.

It occurs to me reading this it's not a great exampe--because Hunter's Quarry or Weapon Focus is going to apply to any shot, so you shouldn't count that.

Twin Strike - 2d10 with 2 hits (average 11)
Nimble Strike/Basic Attack - 1d10+5 (20 dex) (average 10.5)

I'm not sure how that rates when you figure in 2 hit rolls, but I but it's pretty balanced.

 

[Branduil]

Careful Attack/Strike is +2 to hit at the cost of your stat damage on the attack. I thought it was a mistake at first (because of DDXP) but then I started considering the math:

Let's say at first level I have 18 DEX (+4).

I can do my regular shot with +6 to hit, and do 1d10+4 damage (remember the bow has +2 prof bonus)
or
I can do Careful shot and have +8 to hit, and do 1d10 damage.

So I'm trading 4 damage for +10% to hit.

Fast forward to say... 21ish, and now I have about 26 Dex (+8).

Now I can do my normal shot with +10 vs AC and 2d10+8 damage
Or I can do my careful shot with +12 vs AC and 2d10 damage.

So I'm trading 8 damage for +10% to hit. I also hit twice as hard as I did before.

That's when it occurred to me that +to-hit is static. +2 to hit is always going to improve your chance of success by 10%, unless you are "off the d20" for your hit needs. 4E scaling is designed to keep you on the d20 when fighting appropriate encounters. So basically I'm getting +10% to hit for a scaling amount of reduced damage.

Let's say it stayed like DDXP (which appeared to give you Dex*2 vs AC for 1W damage.

At level 1 careful attack = +4 hit for 4 less damage
At level 21 careful attack = +8 hit for 8 less damage.

Why would you ever NOT use a +40% hit chance!?

Twin Shot is very strong, no argument. You'll burn through ammo at an alarming rate as an archer, of course.

But she can either fire 2 shots with +7 to hit, for up to 2d10+d6+2 (28, if both shots hit) or one shot with +9 to hit for up to 1d10+d6+1 (17) or a basic ranged attack with +7 to hit for up to 1d10+d6+6 (22). She's got to hit twice for Twin Shot to do up to 28, otherwise 17 is her max.

She usually used Twin Shot against minions or badly wounded enemies (so she could start on a new target with the second shot). Against high AC targets (like the dragon) she used Careful Shot, really needing to make it count. When she was down to 10 arrows, she started using basic ranged attacks.

Actually, against high-AC targets is when you really want to use Twin Strike.

Let's say the Dragon has an AC such that you need to roll a 15 or higher on your basic attack to hit it. With careful shot you need a 13. So you have a 40% chance of hitting the dragon each round with Careful Attack.

With Twin Strike, you have a 30% chance of hitting... but you get two attacks. The chance of you missing with both attacks in the same round is your miss chance multiplied by itself. Which is 70%x70%, which equals 49%. That means you have a 51% chance of landing at least one attack. That's 11% better than with Careful Attack. Twin Strike is usually better in a normal scenario, but against high AC, it's better by far.

As a general rule, against high-AC enemies it's almost always better to get in as many attacks as you possibly can per round.

 

[Xorn]

I see your point. So with 19 to hit, Careful Attack is better by 1%. So you use it when the defense is nearly off the d20. (The ranger in my playgroup has Twin Strike & Careful Attack; there's no point in Nimble as she just doesn't have to worry about something getting close often enough to care.)

What about Twin vs a basic attack, with 20 dex (+5 damage).

One shot for a potential of 15, or two for a potential of 20?

 

[Branduil]

I see your point. So with 19 to hit, Careful Attack is better by 1%. So you use it when the defense is nearly off the d20. (The ranger in my playgroup has Twin Strike & Careful Attack; there's no point in Nimble as she just doesn't have to worry about something getting close often enough to care.)

What about Twin vs a basic attack, with 20 dex (+5 damage).

One shot for a potential of 15, or two for a potential of 20?

Twin vs. Basic is more of an interesting choice, as far as I can tell from what little math I've done. It really depends on two things:

-How much bonus damage you get besides your modifier.
-What you need to roll to hit.

In general, the higher you need to roll, and the more non-modifier bonus damage you have, the better it is to use Twin Strike instead of a basic attack.

I calculated the math for my Ranger because I wanted to be as efficient as possible. I have a +4 mod to dex. I also have the feat Lethal Hunter which changes my Hunter's Quarry dice to d8's. My character is level 1.

If I must hit a 15 or higher to hit, with a basic attack I will average 4.2dpr(damage per round), calculating in miss chance, average damage, hunter's quarry, etc.

With Twin Strike, if I must roll 15 or higher, 7.3dpr. Obviously the better choice.

If I must hit 11 or higher,
Basic Attack= 7dpr
Twin Strike= 8.62dpr

7 or higher,
BA= 9.8dpr
TS= 9.51dpr

So, a basic attack can actually be optimal against extremely easy to hit foes. Of course, in some cases you still might want to use twin strike, like against two easy-to-hit minions, since you could potentially kill both of them.

If I take Weapon Focus(Longbow) as my feat at level 2, Twin Strike becomes a bit better in most cases.

If I need to hit 15 or higher,
BA= 4.5dpr
TS= 7.82dpr

11 or higher,
BA= 7.5dpr
TS=9.38dpr

7 or higher,
BA= 10.5dpr
TS= 10.42dpr

So at this point, even against low-AC enemies a basic attack's advantage is minimal.

 

[phil500]

is Twin Strike by far the best at-will for an archer Ranger?

seems like its the best at will for almost any character.

with warrior of the wild being the best multiclass bonus (because the hunters quarry lasts until the enemy goes down) I think a lot of people will multi into ranger.

 

[Westwind]

seems like its the best at will for almost any character.

with warrior of the wild being the best multiclass bonus (because the hunters quarry lasts until the enemy goes down) I think a lot of people will multi into ranger.

It's been noted many times on the board that Warrior of the Wild doesn't work this way, like the rest of the multi-class feats, it's a 1 round ability.