Pathfinder 1E Question About Keen Weapons

[SmuggleNutz]

Can't seem to find anything on this in the Pathfinder rules.

The magic ability Keen says it can only be placed on melee piercing or slashing weapons. How is this handled with weapons that meet this requirement, but that can be both melee and ranged, such as daggers and starknives? I see examples all over of daggers with the Keen ability. Is the weapon no longer able to be used as a ranged weapon? Or can it be used ranged, just without the Keen ability? Or something else?

Thanks!

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

A dagger remains a melee weapon, it just has the additional characteristic of being throwable. I would say that it stays keen even if thrown.

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

AR

 

[Vegepygmy]

This appears to have changed from 3.5, which did not limit keen to melee weapons only. I suspect that Paizo didn't consider the effect of the changed wording on melee weapons that can also be thrown.

In any event, I agree with AR above. It's sensible, consistent with the previous edition, and in no way broken.

 

[Tovec]

(Bold for emphasis.)

Light Melee Weapons / Cost / Dmg (S) / Dmg (M) / Critical / Range / Weight / Type / Special / Source
Dagger / 2 gp / 1d3 / 1d4 / 19–20/×2 / 10 ft. / 1 lb. / P or S / — / CRB


Please note, dagger is a light MELEE weapon. It also qualifies as Piercing or Slashing. So, it qualifies for Keen.


Keen:
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).


An example of a ranged weapon would be:


Ranged Weapons / Cost / Dmg (S) / Dmg (M) / Critical Range / Weight / Type / Special / Source
Crossbow, light / 35 gp / 1d6 / 1d8 / 19–20/×2 / 80 ft. / 4 lbs. / P / — / CRB


Which clearly says RANGED for its category, which does not qualify even though it is Piercing.


That is how you can tell anyway. Starknives are Light MELEE (martial) Weapons (I checked). As such they qualify for keen as well, even though you throw them. It doesn't seem like an oversight, they don't become ranged (category) weapons just because they are thrown. They remain melee weapons that have a range increment, that is all.

Sources from PF SRD:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/keen

 

[SmuggleNutz]

Thanks to all who chimed in on this one. Inspired by Tovec's post, a quick check of the weapons list does show Dagger classified as a Melee weapon with a range increment. Dagger does not appear on the list of Ranged weapons. And although the base spell for the Keen weapon, Keen Edge, can be placed on ammunition, it still cannot be placed on the weapon that fires that ammunition, a bow for instance.

So a Keen Dagger, Starknife, etc. is rules compliant.

The limiting factor seems to be that all melee weapons with a range increment have a very short range: Dagger, 10 ft; Starknife, 10 ft.; wooden stake (?), 10 ft.; the Shortspear and Spear are both 20 ft. In fact, I could not find a Melee weapon with a range increment over 20 ft. And since in PF the range penalty is -2, that is a hefty -8 at 40 ft. for a Dagger.