D&D 5E question about surprise

[pukunui]

Hi all,

The passage on determining surprise in the PHB (pg. 189) seems to me to suggest that surprise can only come up when one side is hidden from the other. It talks about using Stealth vs Perception to determine surprise.

But what about someone who is trying to be deceptive? What if you've got a doppelganger - which has several special abilities that key off surprise - posing as a friendly acquaintance in order to get close to a PC before attacking. Could the doppelganger gain surprise - perhaps with a successful Deception check vs the target's passive Insight score - even if the PC is technically aware of them? Most people don't expect their allies to attack them.

What do you guys think? Can someone be surprised even if they can technically see their attacker? Or do they actually have to be completely unaware of their attacker in order to be surprised?

 

[Li Shenron]

But what about someone who is trying to be deceptive? What if you've got a doppelganger - which has several special abilities that key off surprise - posing as a friendly acquaintance in order to get close to a PC before attacking. Could the doppelganger gain surprise - perhaps with a successful Deception check vs the target's passive Insight score - even if the PC is technically aware of them? Most people don't expect their allies to attack them.

What do you guys think? Can someone be surprised even if they can technically see their attacker?

Sure! I think "surprise" more generally represents being unaware of being about to be attacked.

The game normally assumes you're doing your best to be prepared, so at least when you're in a dungeon it requires the attacker to employ some tactic to gain surprise, otherwise you are considered aware & prepared to fight anything. But I'd say that deception can be considered a tactic as valid as stealth.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

My first reaction when I saw "question about surprise" was "there is no good answer"...because that's how these threads end up.

But...to actually add to the topic, the sections on surprise do refer to being unaware of a "threat." If you aren't expecting someone to be potentially hostile, then you are most definitely unaware of a threat.

 

[Azurewraith]

I would just grant it as surprise because if your in a combat situation you aint looking at the guy your standing shoulder to shoulder with your to busy worrying about the warg riding goblin war band. In a social situation your not going to be expecting much more than cutting words i mean what lowly peasant is going to try and take you on heck after about lvl 6 what guard will dare stand up to you.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I think the key here is that enemy needs to detect a threat. A group of adventurers coming into a bandit lair is surely detected as threat by the bandits even if they try to reason with the bandits. A doppelganger disguised as friend of the bandit, however, would not be detected as a threat.

 

[jayoungr]

I probably would award surprise in the case of the doppelganger...but I'm starting to wonder if I've been too liberal with surprise rounds. My players are now lobbying for a surprise round for kicking in the door on a room full of unsuspecting enemies: "But they won't have time to get ready! What if he kicks in the door, and I immediately shoot an arrow into the room before they have time to react?" It's as reasonable as some other situations where I've awarded surprise, but then I'd find myself awarding surprise rounds almost all the time, and they're just too powerful for that.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Going by the official adventure modules you can surprise distracted enemies by kicking in the door like if they play a card game. But if there are just soldiers standing guard, you can't surprise them by kicking in the door.

Also if your players constantly do something, add something where doing this is actually a bad idea, like a trap right behind the door that activates when the door is not properly opened.

 

[BoldItalic]

I probably would award surprise in the case of the doppelganger...but I'm starting to wonder if I've been too liberal with surprise rounds. My players are now lobbying for a surprise round for kicking in the door on a room full of unsuspecting enemies: "But they won't have time to get ready! What if he kicks in the door, and I immediately shoot an arrow into the room before they have time to react?" It's as reasonable as some other situations where I've awarded surprise, but then I'd find myself awarding surprise rounds almost all the time, and they're just too powerful for that.

The PCs don't know whether or not the monsters are unsuspecting until you tell them. The monsters don't even exist until you announce that they are there and what they are doing, and that doesn't happen until the door is opened.

When they kick down the door, decide at that moment if you want your monsters to be surprised and narrate the situation accordingly. Regardless of what it might say in the module you are following, it's your choice whether, for example, the hobgoblin guards happen to be playing cards (surprised) or standing up ready to go on patrol (not surprised) and you don't have to decide that until the door is opened.

 

[pukunui]

Thanks guys!

 

[jayoungr]

The PCs don't know whether or not the monsters are unsuspecting until you tell them. The monsters don't even exist until you announce that they are there and what they are doing, and that doesn't happen until the door is opened.

They peeked through a crack in the door first.