Question about (Tenser's) Floating Disk

[Rel]

Actually, I don't think the "familiar chariot" is strictly legal. Share Spells doesn't allow you to "key" a spell to the familiar; it allows you to cast a spell with a Range of Personal on the familiar, or to have a spell you cast on yourself affect him too.

TFD has an Effect, not a Target, so it can't be Shared.

-Hyp.

Upon further review, I think that I must agree with you here, Hyp. A closer reading of the familiar rules supports your interpretation in that the spell must have an effect ON the caster for the familiar to share it.

Although I stand by the notion that a weasel drawn chariot is a memorable sight.

 

[jgsugden]

NegZ: Self righteous? This is a moral issue? I didn't realize I took a moral stand. Well, since I did, and it is the trend in arguments of morality, I'm going to have to tell you that you're a sinner for disagreeing with me.

Sinner!

There, now on to the pointless argument.

How can my interpretation be correct while yours is clearly wrong? Because there is enough evidence the points against your interpretation and none that points against mine.

Have you ever heard the phrase 'follows you around' to mean 'complying with instruction'? Ever? Even once in your life?

If they intended for the caster to ride his own disk, why omit any rules to govern this act? Why not include something about how to guide the disk while riding it?

I'll stand by my earlier comments.

Have a nice day.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Negative Zero: First up - if you felt that it was sufficiently offensive that you needed to both apologise in advance AND mask it, then perhaps you should have devoted some of that energy to finding a nicer way to say it. Neither of your efforts were aimed at stopping the insult, merely at sidestepping the consequences. That's pretty insulting.

finally, i find it rather presumptuous that you deign to tell me what makes my game fun or that you would try to invoke the "balance" card over something like this. maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part, that prevents me from seeing how having a spellcaster ride a plane of force that he created (and can direct within certain spelled out guidelines) can be unbalancing. but who knows.

Full-round casting actions, and full attacks (both ranged and melee) while moving at walking speed. Charges at 1.5 times normal charge distance (stand on disc - move disc, charge off disc). Travelling all night while still memorising spells/healing etc. It has some serious implications.

 

[Caliban]

Full-round casting actions, and full attacks (both ranged and melee) while moving at walking speed. Charges at 1.5 times normal charge distance (stand on disc - move disc, charge off disc). Travelling all night while still memorising spells/healing etc. It has some serious implications.

Having the disk follow you is not an action, but I would certainly rule that if you are riding it, directing it is a move equivalent action. That resolves every issue you brought up.

 

[Negative Zero]

jgsugden:
firstly, you're right, self-righteous was the wrong word to use. my bad.
however, you are correct, i am a sinner. i bow my head in shame ...

secondly, if your idea of "enough evidence" is that one phrase (to the exclusion of all else), then i suppose you have a valid point. as for the "none that points to [yours]" comment, again, this is true only if you ignore the rest of the spell description. however, if you do read the rest of the spell description, the line of right and wrong becomes a bit more blurry.

i never said that the game desiners intended for the spell to be used in "X" way, merely that according to the way the spell description is written, it is possible. if however, this is your contention, there are lots of things in this world have additional uses that the original designers hadn't thought of. it's one of the biggest sources of advancement and progress. therefore, intention does not negate possibility.

you mentioned: "why omit any rules to govern this act?" this is a good point. if the spell designers never intended it to be used this way,and there was the a specific indication that it couldn't be used thusly in a previous version of the game, then you tell me? why didn't they exclude this use specifically? (as had been done before.) especially when there are clearly guidelines as to what cannot be done with it already in the description. it could be that perhaps it does not break the "what can be accomplished" rules?


Saeviomagy:
i actually didn't feel it was offensive at all. i never made any accusations, nor did i call any names. i simply stated that his tone came off a certain way. however, there are a lot of delicate crystaline constitutions around here, and i wanted to make sure that anyone who read it, did so by their own choice, not mine. (sort of a "don't complain about the nudity, if you know the movie's rated X" sort of thing.) ... (geez my mind is in the gutter! )

anywho, i'd always assumed that it took a standard (or a move) action to move the disk beyond what its default actions were (read "follow you around"). clearly nothing states that this is the case (at least that i'm aware of), so you may be right.

however, with regard to the specific examples you mentioned; "full attacks (both ranged and melee) while moving at walking speed. Charges at 1.5 times normal charge distance" those are both mostly useful with "fighter" type classes, and can already be done according to what seems to be the "standard" interpretation of the rules by having the wizard's fighter buddy stand on the disk. (although, if you need to jump down, you can't charge.) and if it's already possible and the game is balanced, i can't imagine how it'd be unbalancing to allow a wizard to make a full attack that way.

"Travelling all night while still memorising spells/healing etc" you can already do that with a wagon. no big deal there either. the only thing that you mentioned that could be an issue is the "Full-round casting actions". but then again, how much of an impact is that really? moderate, at best. (and i think that's being generous.) afterall, the wiz would still be vulerable, and i think that any capable DM would impose an AC penalty due to sitting (making him easier to hit) or a balance check if standing (potentially ruining his spell).

not to mention, that for everything mentioned, the wiz would have to have the spell prepared, and in most of those cases, precast, and would be giving up a sleep spell, or a magic missile or any number of more useful spells to do it. how often do you see this spell memorised? i still don't see the major imbalancing factors alluded to.

~NegZ

 

[diaglo]

Take feather fall for instance - it's a free action to cast, a lower level, has a much higher load limit but it has a lessened duration, and only moves subjects downwards.

and requires you to be in a freefall already and the spell prepared (which for a wizard can be hazardous) but for a sorceror even more troublesome as it takes up 1 of the few spells he has.

 

[Li Shenron]

it is a low lvl spell. it is supposed to be a limitation.

First of all, the spell doesn't say anything about what you cannot carry with it. And you cannot prevent a Wizard's friend to climb over the floating disk and be transported. This means that you CAN use it as a mean for transportation. Some people don't like it and try to at least prevent the caster to use it as a mean of let's say self-transportation, and to do this they seek aid in the sentence that it follows you 5ft unless otherwise directed, adding the fact that you cannot approach closer (which is completely missing from the description) and ignoring that it still says "otherwise directed" which means that there must be a way for the disc to be at a ditance other than 5ft. I fail to understand the logic that lets you use this description to imply you cannot approach the disc, but some people use it.

Compared with Levitate it is not better, besides duration. Levitate lets you go vertically which in general is much harder and precious to get, and doesn't have any volume issues. Anyway, let's go on for the moment.

That said, the description of this spell is very appalling. It completely fails to specify how the hell you move this disk, even if it says that "otherwise directed" which lets you believe you can indeed direct it. But it doesn't say what action it is (concentration? move?), nor how far you can move it with such an action; the only hint about a speed is that "it accompanies you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round" (debate if it means your listed Speed or if it means normal rate=2xSpeed as a double move...).

• You can have it appear anywhere within range (point of origin)
• It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round
• If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you
• The disk also winks out if you move beyond range

The above are the parts somehow regarding the horizontal movement of the disk. If you don't want the disk to be used as transportation, rule that you cannot direct it at all besides (1) having it follow you or (2) staying still in one point, since there is no specification on how to move it otherwise. But don't use the argument that you cannot approach it because that just sucks: how do you even load the disk if you must stay 5ft away?

I can understand that what many don't like is that this spell may have too many uses for its level (what about having it carry an object to provide cover from one direction?), and althought in the past I have let such a use, I had to houserule about the action to move it (I had it Concentration = standard, and Speed equal to your single move); nowadays I may decide you don't move it at all besides (1) and (2) above. Someone has been able in some published book to screw up both the spirits and the rules at the same time, by suggesting to Levitate yourself, have a friend climb the Floating Disk and lean a stick to you, grab the stick and "will the disk to float towards you, since it can't come closer than 5ft but you are levitating and linked to your friend, it will push you away and all of you will happily go...".

 

[diaglo]

First of all, the spell doesn't say anything about what you cannot carry with it. And you cannot prevent a Wizard's friend to climb over the floating disk and be transported. This means that you CAN use it as a mean for transportation. Some people don't like it and try to at least prevent the caster to use it as a mean of let's say self-transportation...

it does say what you cannot carry:anything which exceeds 100lbs/caster lvl (or about 2 gallons of liquid)

so yes, you can use it as transport. you could transport an unconscious or dead comrade. which has been done many times. you could transport an active one. although what ride check do they make when hit. self-transport is the argument.

your idea of someone pushing the sitting wizard is a good one. and an old one too. go read Dungeon #18. but now you have two characters involved. the junkie wizard and the pusher. a limitation but not unreasonable.

the argument is the wizard skimming along without aid.

 

[Li Shenron]

your idea of someone pushing the sitting wizard is a good one.

No!

It's not my idea and it's not good, it's ridiculous!

 

[diaglo]

No!

It's not my idea and it's not good, it's ridiculous!

Roflmao.

i'm glad we agree.