Question about (Tenser's) Floating Disk

[Shard O'Glase]

The point, though, is that this is not a matter of using a spell in creative ways.

It's about giving a spell functionality which is not specified within the spell description.

This is like allowing the Fly spell to fly underwater. The spell does not explicitly disallow it, so it is allowed?

Everyone knows the intent of the world "fly". Everyone knows the intent of the word "follows".

This is not ambiguous, people are mostly just wanting to allow it because PCs do not use Floating Disc that often (although the wizard in my campaign likes using it).

If you want a transport spell, create it.

Using a spell creatively is all about giving a spell funcitonality not specified within the spell description.

So its much more like saying you can't use fireball as a flare or sound burst as a distraction, than saying use fly to help your swiming.

The floating disk floats, supoprts weight, and can be directed. It can't move faster than casters base move and it can't move more than 3' off a solid surface. All the conditions of what it can do are met, none of the conditions of what it can't do are met. just like suing fireball as a flare.

 

[KarinsDad]

The floating disk floats, supoprts weight, and can be directed.

It cannot be directed.

"If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you."

It's interval can be modified (0 feet up to max following distance), not it's movement.

"If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant temperature of 5 degrees."

With this sentence, you could change the temperature. But, you could not change the pressure.

The entire spell discusses how the disc follows the caster, maintains an interval, and accompanies the caster. It does not have a single sentence that indicates that the phrase "If not otherwise directed" means that you can change how it moves except for the interval distance.


There is a difference between using a spell as written in a creative manner and using a single phrase in the spell description to add functionality that is not intended. What you are doing with Floating Disc with this skewed interpretation is no different than saying that the Fly spell allows you to fly underwater.

 

[Caliban]

The entire spell discusses how the disc follows the caster, maintains an interval, and accompanies the caster. It does not have a single sentence that indicates that the phrase "If not otherwise directed" means that you can change how it moves except for the interval distance.

[/b]

While that's certainly a reasonable interpretation, it's not the only possible interpretation, and it's certainly not much fun.

The spell is nearly useless as written, so I allow a slightly more flexible interpretation. It's certainly not overpowered, as I haven't seen any sudden rush to use the spell.

There is a difference between using a spell as written in a creative manner and using a single phrase in the spell description to add functionality that is not intended. What you are doing with Floating Disc with this skewed interpretation is no different than saying that the Fly spell allows you to fly underwater.

You're the first person I've seen claim that the Fly spell wouldn't operate underwater. You have a magical means of propulsion that doesn't require any moving parts (wings, engines, etc), so why wouldn't it work underwater? After all, water is just a slightly thicker medium than air, and it's not as if you are using wings to fly.

Since I can't see any logical reason why it wouldn't work in the game world, I just ruled that you fly at 1/2 speed due to water resistance.

 

[Abraxas]

Ive a few questions - mostly for the people who wouldn't let the disc be used for transportation.

If the mage who cast the spell directs it to maintain a distance of 0, can he then climb on top of it?

If no, why?

If yes, after climbing on top, what happens when he stops directing it to maintain a distance of 0?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If yes, after climbing on top, what happens when he stops directing it to maintain a distance of 0?

It depends whether he sticks his feet over the side or not

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

While that's certainly a reasonable interpretation, it's not the only possible interpretation, and it's certainly not much fun.

The spell is nearly useless as written, so I allow a slightly more flexible interpretation. It's certainly not overpowered, as I haven't seen any sudden rush to use the spell.

It is nearly useless as a combat spell. As a spell to carry a severely wounded comrade or to carry treasure, especially in "dungeon-like settings" where beasts of burden can rarely go, it is nearly indispensable.

I think that most objective people who read the description of Floating Disc would agree that it refers to a disc that performs two tasks: following the caster and carrying a load.

Is it unbalanced to allow the caster to use it as a form of mount/attack platform. Probably. It is only a first level spell and as such, allowing the caster to move without getting fatigued, without setting off some forms of traps, without leaving tracks, etc. for hours on end may be a little much when compared to pass without trace, levitate, and fly spells. No movement spell below that of Fly allows semi-convenient movement through a swamp.

Is it a house rule? Yes. Designer intent seems fairly clear on this one.

Giving the disc nearly the equivalent of the Pass Without Trace ability, a low powered version of flight, the ability to avoid pit traps, and the ability to avoid fatigue on a long march (in addition to its other normal abilities) makes the spell too uber. IMO.

You're the first person I've seen claim that the Fly spell wouldn't operate underwater.

Always a first time for everything.

You have a magical means of propulsion that doesn't require any moving parts (wings, engines, etc), so why wouldn't it work underwater? After all, water is just a slightly thicker medium than air, and it's not as if you are using wings to fly.

Since I can't see any logical reason why it wouldn't work in the game world, I just ruled that you fly at 1/2 speed due to water resistance.

With regard to flying, I doubt you will find any dictionary definition that does not include movement through the air. I also doubt you will find any dictionary definition that includes movement through water.

Flying (and the Monster Manual reference to Flight) quite frankly refers to moving through air. Ask any person you know what the word flying means and it is very unlikely that they will ever talk about moving through water since the word does not mean that.

Even the phrase from the Fly spell "is still aloft" does not make sense underwater. And the concept of "floats downward at 60 feet per round" makes no sense in the context of being in water and not being burdened to the point of sinking.

Now, we do have a slang expression of "flying" to mean that something is moving fast (e.g. that shark is flying through the water), but that is hardly a reason to think that the Fly spell gives you that ability.

Is it unbalanced to allow movement through water. No. Is it a house rule? Yes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is it unbalanced to allow movement through water. No. Is it a house rule? Yes.

The Sage disagrees, apparently

From the 3E Main FAQ:

Can a creature fly underwater? I’ve never heard of a
normal bird flying underwater. What are the rules
regarding this? If it’s possible, what is the penalty to
movement and maneuverability?
Flying creatures must swim when they enter the water, just
as other creatures do. A fly spell lets you swim at your normal
flying speed, but with the same maneuverability as other
swimmers (perfect maneuverability). Incorporeal creatures also
can fly/swim in this manner (they move through water just as
easily as they move through other substances). Note that
gaseous creatures cannot enter water.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Sage disagrees, apparently

Big surprise there.

He likes making up rules on the fly (oops) which do not correspond to what he wrote in the first place.

For example, Freedom of Movement gives you the ability to move through water like air (effectively).

You want to fly underwater, you should need both the Fly spell and the Freedom of Movement spell.

You want to walk underwater, you should need just the Freedom of Movement spell.

I have no problem with the Fly spell working underwater if the darn spell stated that in the first place. It doesn't. The Sage is on crack. Always has been.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Using a spell creatively is all about giving a spell funcitonality not specified within the spell description.

So its much more like saying you can't use fireball as a flare or sound burst as a distraction, than saying use fly to help your swiming.

I think analogies are useful, but in my opinion you are not choosing a fair or appropriate one.

I think that using a fireball as a flare fits well enough with the spell description and does not add extra functionality rather than just taking advantage of what is normally a side effect (the visual impact). To add serious new functionality to fireball along the lines of personal transpo for floating disk, we'd be talking about using a fireball directed at the ground below you as a way of making a super leap, like a one-shot jet pack.

On the other hand, one creative use of floating disk that doesn't create new functionality but turns a nonprimary effect into a useful one would be leading a floating disk into position blocking a doorway, directing it to stop following, then getting behind it and using it as an interposing barrier. Not like it won't move when pushed, but it could screw up a charge.

Or, a mage with a move of 30 could have a heavily armored fighter with a move of 20 climb up top, and he could lead him around in combat, giving him better speed, effectively, and a +1 to hit for attacking from higher ground.

Those are creative uses that make functions out of side effects, but they don't add new effects as you do if you let the "otherwise directed" in "If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you." turn into "move anywhere you want." Heck, why not just "otherwise direct" it to bump into foes, disrupt enemy spellcasters' concentration, and make you tea while we're at it?

 

[Caliban]

It is nearly useless as a combat spell. As a spell to carry a severely wounded comrade or to carry treasure, especially in "dungeon-like settings" where beasts of burden can rarely go, it is nearly indispensable.

I think that most objective people who read the description of Floating Disc would agree that it refers to a disc that performs two tasks: following the caster and carrying a load.

Clearly anyone who disagrees with you is not objective and can therefore be dismissed. Brilliant.

Where do you get that the disk follows you anyway? That's so 3.0. Nothing in the 3.5 spell description mentions the disk following you. It says that the disk will "accompany" you, not "follow" you. They made the description even more general in 3.5. The disk can accompany you by following you, by being beside you, or by being in front of you. Or possibly by being underneath you.

Is it unbalanced to allow the caster to use it as a form of mount/attack platform. Probably. It is only a first level spell and as such, allowing the caster to move without getting fatigued, without setting off some forms of traps, without leaving tracks, etc. for hours on end may be a little much when compared to pass without trace, levitate, and fly spells. No movement spell below that of Fly allows semi-convenient movement through a swamp.


Is it a house rule? Yes. Designer intent seems fairly clear on this one.

Giving the disc nearly the equivalent of the Pass Without Trace ability, a low powered version of flight, the ability to avoid pit traps, and the ability to avoid fatigue on a long march (in addition to its other normal abilities) makes the spell too uber. IMO.

[/b]

Yet in practice, none of these things have occured. The spell is just too slow. Everyone else get's a horse and moves faster than 30' a round, forcing the mage to leave the disc behind.

Also, directing the disk for several hours would be just as fatiguing as riding a horse for several hours, so no benefit there.

It in no way allows you to avoid pit traps. It stays 3' above the ground. If it can't support your weight, then it's not "ground". If your weight would trigger the pit trap by walking, it would trigger it when riding the disk.

And you are wrong about semi-convenient movement through a swamp. The first level Mount spell can do effectively the same thing, and lasts twice as long.

With regard to flying, I doubt you will find any dictionary definition that does not include movement through the air. I also doubt you will find any dictionary definition that includes movement through water.

Find me a dictionary definition that covers magical flight with no physical means of propulsion, and I bet it would.

Give me a logical reason why it wouldn't work under water.