Question about (Tenser's) Floating Disk

[Magus Coeruleus]

Following

Where do you get that the disk follows you anyway? That's so 3.0. Nothing in the 3.5 spell description mentions the disk following you. It says that the disk will "accompany" you, not "follow" you. They made the description even more general in 3.5. The disk can accompany you by following you, by being beside you, or by being in front of you. Or possibly by being underneath you.

"You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you" (first sentence of spell description, 3.5 SRD and 3.5 PHB p. 294, emphasis mine).

Just for comparison, here's the first couple of sentences from the description of Flaming Sphere, a spell that clearly involves the caster directing the entity created: "A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round" (3.5 SRD and 3.5 PHB p. 232).

 

[Caliban]

"You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you" (first sentence of spell description, 3.5 SRD and 3.5 PHB p. 294, emphasis mine).

Just for comparison, here's the first couple of sentences from the description of Flaming Sphere, a spell that clearly involves the caster directing the entity created: "A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round" (3.5 SRD and 3.5 PHB p. 232).

*shrug* I missed the word follow in the first sentence. But then it also says "accompany". If they meant that it only follows you, then they would have used follow in every instance. Accompany is a bit different than follow.

 

[MerakSpielman]

... an once as a halfling umbrella (it was raining and he was less than 3 feet tall).

Hmm.... but once it filled up with 2 gallons of water, would not one more drop cause the disk to vanish, turning your halfling umbrella into a halfling shower?

 

[Abraxas]

Originally posted by Karinsdad
With regard to flying, I doubt you will find any dictionary definition that does not include movement through the air. I also doubt you will find any dictionary definition that includes movement through water.

Just an aside since there are no real world types of flight like the fly spell to be described in a dictionary - The fly spell most closely resembles the flight ability of certain characters in comic books (those that fly without wings). When these flyers (like superman) hit the water they don't stop flying and start swimming.

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
It depends whether he sticks his feet over the side or not

The mage outboard image is still very funny
But I'm still curious what others think would happen.

 

[MerakSpielman]

The question is, I suppose, what point of your body does the disk attempt to follow?

It seems (pure speculation) that it should attempt to follow your center of gravity. As far as the disk is concerned, it exists on a plane 3' above the ground. It cannot travel up or down. So perhaps it follows that point on the plane that is directly below (or above, for the very short) the caster's center of gravity?

If the caster is sitting on the disk, the above-defined point would exist in the space occupied by the disk itself. If you scooted over a bit or flung your feet over the side, the point would be off-center.

Assuming you then order the disk to "follow" you, would it attempt to align its own center with the point (creating the personal-mover device), or would it balk, since its simple program might assume that it has collided with its controller?

I would personally rule that it cannot follow its caster if the caster is sitting on the disk because, frankly, the caster isn't actually moving. Unless the caster is already moving, the disk can't follow him.


I've been doing some thinking about this spell. What happens if you cast it on the deck of a ship? Does the deck count as "ground?" What if the ship is moving? What if it is moving exactly at the caster's movement rate? What if it's moving twice the casters movement rate? Does the disk then get left behind? What if you cast it below decks? Do you damage the ship as the disk is left behind?

What if, say, instead of a ship we have a wagon or other land vehicle traveling at the caster's movement rate? The caster casts the disk, then moves forward to the front of the wagon at a 5' rate. Can the disk follow, even though the total movement rate of hte wagon and the caster totals 5' greater than the casters normal movement rate? Say, then, that the caster casts fly and moves forward off the wagon at the same 5' rate... suddenly he's over the ground, moving fast enough to leave the disk behind. Does the disk move extra-fast until it leaves the wagon, then slow down and start getting left behind?

Ah, magic and relativity...

 

[KarinsDad]

Clearly anyone who disagrees with you is not objective and can therefore be dismissed. Brilliant.

You have stated yourself that the reason you add this functionality to the disc is because you think the spell is nearly worthless.

Who is being objective on what is actually written in the spell and who is being subjective by adding stuff in order to balance the spell?

Where do you get that the disk follows you anyway? That's so 3.0. Nothing in the 3.5 spell description mentions the disk following you. It says that the disk will "accompany" you, not "follow" you. They made the description even more general in 3.5. The disk can accompany you by following you, by being beside you, or by being in front of you. Or possibly by being underneath you.

Sigh.

PHB 3.5 page 294

"You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you."

What is unclear about this sentence?

Yet in practice, none of these things have occured. The spell is just too slow. Everyone else get's a horse and moves faster than 30' a round, forcing the mage to leave the disc behind.

The purpose of the disc is as a "pack mule" for use in locations where you cannot take a real pack mule. Not in locations where you already have mules and/or horses. In practice for the locations where it is designed for, it does work well.

Sure, you cannot take it up a ladder or rope, but you can take it up stairs. Most pack mules will balk at stairs.

Also, directing the disk for several hours would be just as fatiguing as riding a horse for several hours, so no benefit there.

Only if it states that you must concentrate to direct it. Since it does not state that, it would not be fatiguing.

I direct it to maintain a 10 foot interval instead of a 5 foot one. It does that until I direct it to have a different interval. You can only direct the interval (since that is the word in that same sentence “direct” refers to).

It in no way allows you to avoid pit traps. It stays 3' above the ground. If it can't support your weight, then it's not "ground". If your weight would trigger the pit trap by walking, it would trigger it when riding the disk.

Excuse me, but there is no statement in the spell that says that the firmness of the "ground" is an issue. The disc floats 3 feet off the ground and does not touch it. Now, I’m thinking that most people equate the word "floats" with "doesn't touch". As long as there is a surface below it ("or try to take the disc more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it"), the disc is fine.

If a fellow party member tripped the pit trap while the disc was over it, then the disc would be more than 3 feet above the surface below it and it would wink out.

The literal definition of the word "ground" does not mean a location that supports weight. It just means a surface. Are you stating that it would not go over a wooden floor, or a pit trap, or a stone floor, or a rough cave floor with a little tiny creek running over it, or a plain with heavy grass, or mud, or a stream that has a surface 3 feet below it? None of these are "ground".

And you are wrong about semi-convenient movement through a swamp. The first level Mount spell can do effectively the same thing, and lasts twice as long.

Sigh.

Please do not tell me that I am wrong when that is rarely the case. You told me that several times in this post and it is actually you who were wrong. You must have been tired when posting this.

The Mount spell conjures a mount. A horse. The horse will get bogged down in the mire of a swamp, just like a normal horse.

Your interpretation of the floating disc will travel along fine in a swamp as long as it does not get blocked by trees or something large. With Mount, the horse will get bogged down in a swamp, it will spew mud over the caster with its hooves, 2 foot tall gnarly bushes will slow up its movement, it will shy away from a large snake (assuming you do not take the words "serves willingly" to mean "serves unthinkingly"), etc.

Compared to Mount, your interpretation of the floating disc IS semi-convenient.

Find me a dictionary definition that covers magical flight with no physical means of propulsion, and I bet it would.

Well, best I can tell, we are stuck with English words as they are currently defined.

Give me a logical reason why it wouldn't work under water.

Because the spell does not say it does.

There is a swimming skill for movement underwater. You want something more, the spell had better state it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just an aside since there are no real world types of flight like the fly spell to be described in a dictionary - The fly spell most closely resembles the flight ability of certain characters in comic books (those that fly without wings). When these flyers (like superman) hit the water they don't stop flying and start swimming.

Are we playing a comic book super hero RPG, or are we playing a fantasy RPG?

Just because we as humans can understand the concept of "flying underwater" does not mean that the spell supports that concept.

In the fantasy world, the original designer (i.e. the guy who created the spell in the campaign world, not the real world designer of the spell) of the Fly spell would not have had any fantasy world models of a creature that flys in the air and flys in the water (unless you add those types of creatures into your campaign). Hence, from a fantasy world perspective (not a 20th/21st century lets read comic books perspective), that ability would probably never enter the spell designers mind.


Until 3.5, DND 3E failed pretty much to define underwater environments. There were hints here and there (like the Freedom of Movement spell), but there were very few rules.

However, nowhere in the 3.5 DMG Aquatic Terrain section or in the Fly spell description or in the Flight description of the Monster Manual does it talk about flying under water. It does talk about invisibility under water. It does talk about fire spells underwater. Since the concept of "flying underwater" is a 20th century concept and not a medieval fantasy concept and it is not mentioned in the rules whereas swimming IS mentioned, do you really think that it is allowed as a core rule? Or, is it a house rule?


Can you fly underneath the ground? No. Why not? Because the Fly spell does not mention it and there is already a Burrowing movement ability in the rules.

Can you fly underneath the water? No. Why not? Because the Fly spell does not mention it and there is already a Swimming movement ability in the rules.


Sure, a DM can adjudicate that it is allowed. But, the text does not support it. The text supports swimming.

 

[Caliban]

You have stated yourself that the reason you add this functionality to the disc is because you think the spell is nearly worthless.

Who is being objective on what is actually written in the spell and who is being subjective by adding stuff in order to balance the spell?

[/b]

What crawled up your butt? I've already said I house ruled the spell, but you keep on jumping on me anyway.


Now quit being a jerk and stop telling me how my house ruled version of the spell has to work, okay?

I've already stated how I define "ground" in relation to my version of the spell, and since it's my house rule, I'm right and your wrong, so deal with it.

My house ruled version doesn't have any of these issues you keep bringing up, as I've already explained.

Sigh.


PHB 3.5 page 294

"You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you."


What is unclear about this sentence?

Already been covered, in a previous post, but thanks for repeating it again. That really helps the situation. Not.

The purpose of the disc is as a "pack mule" for use in locations where you cannot take a real pack mule. Not in locations where you already have mules and/or horses. In practice for the locations where it is designed for, it does work well.

Sure, you cannot take it up a ladder or rope, but you can take it up stairs. Most pack mules will balk at stairs.

Only if it states that you must concentrate to direct it. Since it does not state that, it would not be fatiguing.

You need to pay more attention. I've already stated that I ruled that if you are riding the disc yourself, directing it is a move equivalent action. (Because it's not following you at that point.)

Excuse me, but there is no statement in the spell that says that the firmness of the "ground" is an issue. The disc floats 3 feet off the ground and does not touch it. Now, I’m thinking that most people equate the word "floats" with "doesn't touch". As long as there is a surface below it ("or try to take the disc more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it"), the disc is fine.

If it can't support your weight, it's not the ground. It's something covering the ground. I've already stated that this is how it works for

Since this is being defined in relation to my house rule on the spell, your so called "literal definition" of ground is irrelevent.

Sigh.


Please do not tell me that I am wrong when that is rarely the case.

*sigh* Yourself. Stop being antagonistic.

The Mount spell conjures a mount. A horse. The horse will get bogged down in the mire of a swamp, just like a normal horse.

Read the rules. Swamp is now just "Difficult Terrain" which cuts your movement in half. The increased movement of the horse means that you will be moving faster, even at half speed.

Your interpretation of the floating disc will travel along fine in a swamp as long as it does not get blocked by trees or something large. With Mount, the horse will get bogged down in a swamp, it will spew mud over the caster with its hooves, 2 foot tall gnarly bushes will slow up its movement, it will shy away from a large snake (assuming you do not take the words "serves willingly" to mean "serves unthinkingly"), etc.

Wow, you sure like reading a lot of extra difficulties into that spell which aren't mentioned anywhere in the description. Which is strange, since you are usually pretty gung ho about "it's magic therefore it's automatically better" in your other debates.

Compared to Mount, your interpretation of the floating disc IS semi-convenient.

Sure, when you start making up things to hinder the mount spell.

Well, best I can tell, we are stuck with English words as they are currently defined.

Since the Fly spell doesn't match your dictionary definition of fly. (no physical means of propulsion required), then I don't think your definition applies.

Because the spell does not say it does.

Not good enough in this case, and it looks like one of the game designers agrees with me. But nevermind that, he disagrees with you so he's "on crack".

There is a swimming skill for movement underwater. You want something more, the spell had better state it.

Obviously not. But on this issue I think we will have to agree to disagree. After all, even you don't think it's an unbalanced application of the spell.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Some comments:

1) I've always had issues with the word "ground" in the spell description. It has come up in my games by curious players who wanted to know if they could use it to cross things like water (mage casts fly (going slow and close to surface) and floating disk, ally rides disk). I like the idea of defining ground as a surface that will support the caster's weight. It's not theoretically better or worse, but it's a quick easy rule to follow.

2) I think the analogies to wagons and pack mules are very apt, because it does strike me that the spell is meant to serve in that capacity. This gives us a handle on what sorts of things the spell should and shouldn't be able to do.

3) The relativity bit can get crazy. For simplicity and fun, I would work with the relative speed of the caster (i.e. moving ship is okay). If he dropped off a wagon and travels greater than normal speed from inertia, I'd say that's a good time for the disk to wink out. For the surface issue, see 1) above.

4) My players were kind of bummed that floating disk couldn't do as much as they hoped (even though they still found it useful a couple of times). I still don't like letting it be used for personal transpo, but I would be interested in other ideas to give it a small boost in effectiveness. Any ideas?

...actually, here's one. What if you can turn a floating disk vertical? Since it's 3' in diameter and 3' off the ground, it would be touching the ground if it rotated on its center. The purported reason would be so that the caster can dump the contents of the disk easily instead of having to push or shovel them off. The creative use would be to get right behind it and kneel for cover, using it sort of like a tower shield. To tweak balance, tipping could be allowed either at will, or only if you are right next to it (i.e. you manually tip it by the edge). What do you think?

Hey, know that we're at it, regardless of this idea, wouldn't it be good to have an AC and hp for the floating disk? What if someone wants to destroy it? Someone might want to stop some pesky adventurer's from making off with their loot.

 

[KarinsDad]

What crawled up your butt? I've already said I house ruled the spell, but you keep on jumping on me anyway.

I'm jumping on you?

Look in the mirror pal.

You have more problems with people disagreeing with you than practically anyone else here on the boards.

Other people disagree and do not call people jerks (thread after thread after thread).

Other people disagree and do not suddenly claim they are talking house rules as opposed to core rules.

Grow up Caliban. People will respect you more.


In the meantime, come back and talk with us when you want to talk about the real rules as opposed to Caliban's House Rules.