Question about Torm (FR) and our game

[qstor]

Hi,

Yesterday we had an interesting session. My PC is a 2 level paladin/11th level cleric of Torm and a high ranking member of the paladin group, the order of the Golden Lion. Our party is working for the Cormyrean government in 1372 DR in Annaurach (sp) We met some Shadovar (sp) troops in the desert. On of the party members, a LG dwarven cleric from Mithril Hall, flew off the hook and shot one of their captains. The shades demanded that he be tried with THEIR military court. My PC refused since the desert is NOT their territory as you can see from the politcal map in the FRCS. He said they had no jurisdiction and were "scum of Shar"
My PC drew his sword. The self proclaimed party leader a Cormyrean LN fighter agreed and demanded that I back down. I refused. The fighter had this 15th level 1/2 orc barbarian knock me unconscious. Granted the dwarf wasn't role playing his alignment very well.
Anyways, do people think that I acted within the bounds of Torm and my LG alignment?

Thanks

Mike

 

[Henry]

I actually think you handled it correctly, even if the argument was wrong.

In truth, in FR, the Shades DO have a claim of primacy on Anauroch (technically, NO one owns it now, correct?), but your PC would also have been assured that his ally had NO chance of a fair military court trial, and therefore could not let him be taken in to be slaughtered. The LG Dwarf is screwed now, but the choice is yours as to argue whether you should go for him. Honor and loyalty are Torm's hallmarks; but if there was an existing state of truce or some such, then the Dwarf behaved dishonorably and unlawfully.

Was there an existing truce between your party and theirs? Or were there any extenuating circumstances we should know about?

 

[qstor]

Thanks for the reply. The party had been given a letter of safe passage through the Shade controlled areas. So there was a "truce" between us and the Shades.

The DM ruled that the Shades did control the desert but to me that ruling was wrong given the map in the FRCS.

Something else I left out was the LN fighter was a high ranking military officer in Cormyr but since my PC isn't in the Purple Dragons, I felt that he wasnt in my chain of command.

As a player I keep having visions of the ice cap melting and Tilverton vanishing to the Plane of Shadow but the DM said this hasn't happened..Yet??.

The dwarf got 100 lashes from a whip and dropped unconscious after I left to go to a Father's Day dinner.

Mike

 

[qstor]

*bump*

 

[sword-dancer]

Mike

The DM ruled that the Shades did control the desert but to me that ruling was wrong given the map in the FRCS.

If the Gm ruled th shades controlled the desert. then the shades control thedesert

Something else I left out was the LN fighter was a high ranking military officer in Cormyr but since my PC isn't in the Purple Dragons, I felt that he wasnt in my chain of command.

If you are in the company of an Officer of the PD and have no higher rank, and no special Orders, then the highest ranking Officer in the area is the commanding Officer.
Like it or not.

You are in the bounds of your alignment No
Yoe are in the boudns of the rules of your god ,
Mutiny in the field, helping an traitor, court martial, dishonoring and execution.
Oh and loosing Pallyhood

 

[AvarielAvenger]

First, if the DM says the Shadows are the legitimate owners of the territory, than you should accept that, even if it's not the same as the official FRCS setting. Many DMs change things in official worlds, some even removing high profile NPCs and locations. That is just part of the game.

However, you did do the right thing as far as your alignment and dedication to Torm goes. Torm is a deity of Duty and Loyalty, and I'm rather sure you owe the aforementioned Dwarf a great bond of loyalty.

Even if the Dwarf commited wanton acts of murder, a Paladin of Torm would remember the bond of loyalty they once shared, and honor it by making sure the Dwarf would have a fair and just trial for the crimes he commited. I doubt the Shadows shall give him a fair trial in any event, so your actions were correct according to your alignment and code, in my opinion.

Edit: Ah yes, and in response to the previous post before mine... It is fallacious to claim a Paladin of Torm must follow any authority that is "greater" than his. If a Zhentish high commander was on the field, and he commanded a certain course of action, would a Paladin of Torm be bound to follow it? Paladins do not blindly follow anyone with authority.

The LN Fighter was clearly in the wrong here, betraying a companion to an evil group he must know will not treat his companion fairly, and the only thing wrong the Paladin of Torm could've done was to not challenge the decision.

 

[sword-dancer]

Even if the Dwarf commited wanton acts of murder, a Paladin of Torm would remember the bond of loyalty they once shared, and honor it by making sure the Dwarf would have a fair and just trial for the crimes he commited.

Loyalty to an honorlss and treacherous murder?
Yes his honor demands that he get a fair trial, but this trial is only a ceremony to follow the law, as long as the dwarf isn`t forced to this act the punishment for breaking an truce, treid murder.
Is Death, and if i could recite the old roman punishment for traitors,
as his mind have halved his body should follow.
Two Chariots used to tore the delinquent in halves.

It is fallacious to claim a Paladin of Torm must follow any authority that is "greater" than his. If a Zhentish high commander was on the field, and he commanded a certain course of action, would a Paladin of Torm be bound to follow it? Paladins do not blindly follow anyone with authority.

No any legitimate authority, and since his order is in the service of Cormyr an High Ranking Cormoyrean officer is legitimate authority.
As long as he not order something evil.
And evil is not the excuse for the MurderDeathKilling automatic IMC.

The LN Fighter was clearly in the wrong here, betraying a companion to an evil group he must know will not treat his companion fairly, and the only thing wrong the Paladin of Torm could've done was to not challenge the decision.

It was not necessarily the honorablest of all decisions.
Preferable as Commanding officer LN or LG didn`t matter was to ask the shades as witnesses to court martial and if the dwarf wasn`t forced to do this, followed by his execution.
OTOH the Shades are the ruling force in this county and even if they are evil didn`t mean this court is unjust.

 

[AvarielAvenger]

Loyalty to an honorlss and treacherous murder?

Loyalty to a friend and comrade in arms. Since he is a Paladin, he would want justice done, but since he is a Paladin of Torm, that is secondary to the loyalty he should have towards his friend and comrade.

His friend should be punished for the actions he took, but if the Paladin does not believe he will get a just and fair trial (and it is fair to assume that given who they were dealing with) it is perfectly within his alignemnt and code to refuse to hand his comrade over.

Yes his honor demands that he get a fair trial, but this trial is only a ceremony to follow the law, as long as the dwarf isn`t forced to this act the punishment for breaking an truce, treid murder.
Is Death, and if i could recite the old roman punishment for traitors,
as his mind have halved his body should follow.
Two Chariots used to tore the delinquent in halves.

You're not very clear here, I suppose English isn't your first language. In any event, a trial should not be just a ceremony. It is required that proof be shown and that the proper punishment be meted out. A trial is part of the law, which a Paladin must uphold. Only in evil lands is it "just a ceremony". You are innocent until proven guilty in a true justice system.

Your example of Rome is actually a strange one. Being drawn and quartered is basically one of the most torturous ways someone can be killed. I doubt a Paladin should approve of torture.

If the death penalty is neccessary, it should at least be a quick and efficient execution with ast little pain as possible. Rome was clearly an evil civilization, with rampant slavery, horrible class differentiation, and brutal punishments for criminals. I doubt any D&D Paladin would approve of Rome.

No any legitimate authority, and since his order is in the service of Cormyr an High Ranking Cormoyrean officer is legitimate authority.
As long as he not order something evil.
And evil is not the excuse for the MurderDeathKilling automatic IMC.

A Paladins duty is first and foremost to his god and his code. If a Cormyte officer orders a Paladin to do something against his code and the tenets of his faith, he is under no obligation to do so. You even admit that if a Paladin is ordered to do something evil, it is not an order he should follow. Clearly, the Paladin in this case was ordered to do something against the tenets of his faith and code, and going against the order was justified because of that.

It was not necessarily the honorablest of all decisions.
Preferable as Commanding officer LN or LG didn`t matter was to ask the shades as witnesses to court martial and if the dwarf wasn`t forced to do this, followed by his execution.
OTOH the Shades are the ruling force in this county and even if they are evil didn`t mean this court is unjust.

That's a contradictory statement. Evil people by definition will not be just and honorable in the trials they run, and the punishments they mete out. The Paladin could not, in good conscience, turn over a friend and comrade, with whom he owed a debt of loyalty, to a group that he knows is an evil organization.

 

[sword-dancer]

[/B]

You're not very clear here, I suppose English isn't your first language. In any event, a trial should not be just a ceremony. It is required that proof be shown and that the proper punishment be meted out. A trial is part of the law, which a Paladin must uphold. Only in evil lands is it "just a ceremony". You are innocent until proven guilty in a true justice system.

No I´m German.
And I took reason of the murdering(killing in the line of duty of a city guard by two pcs, as witnesses nearly the wohole city guard, who used deadly force to delay lawful arrest, the following trial was fair and the decision clear from before beginning, the forms must be fulfilled, and then they were beheaded)
And i meant sense evil isn´t an excuse for a paldin do goe in the MDK Mode, if he would stay pally and not be executed for murder if caught by the law/authorities.

Your example of Rome is actually a strange one. Being drawn and quartered is basically one of the most torturous ways someone can be killed. I doubt a Paladin should approve of torture.

Not necessarily, if the Court is fair and the society believe the punishment is fair.
Think that there also other crimes that warrant death in medieval times.
Kinslayer was in ancient times a crime, horrible beyond measure and punished accordingly.

Loyalty to a friend and comrade in arms. Since he is a Paladin, he would want justice done, but since he is a Paladin of Torm, that is secondary to the loyalty he should have towards his friend and comrade.

A friend, who had dishonored and endangered the whole group by breaking the truce.
Torm is a warrior, true by word and deed, but loyality had her bounds.

 

[Wolfspirit]

Well, first off on the Shade control of the Desert. In the FRCS, it's declared as undecided, but that's mainly because at that point in time the native nomadic tribes are still there. Basically, I'm thinking that the Shades are going to take whatever the heck they want if there's not strong opposition, so your DM might be right to think they own the joint.

There's also the issue that centuries ago, the Netheril did control a lot of that area. Of course, I doubt the peoples of Faerun are going to give back the world willingly. I guess overall its what your DM thinks that matters though (just stating my opinions)

On the other hand, as a Paladin/Cleric of Torm, I personally would have to be subdued before letting a friend be judged by the Shades. Unless you've been given evidence to the contrary, I'd personally expect a fairer sentence being judged by a hungry red dragon.

This, of course, depends on how much your character knows about the Shades.